AtlanticCitySlave

"My response: Strong atheists do not claim with 100% certainty that God does not exist. The argument can't go further until this point is cleared up."

-Yeah, this has been mentioned a few times, but the point continues to be ignored.

CX

That is precisely why I classify myself as an objective-noncognitivist-agnostic-nontheist. Problem is that's too hard to say and people rarely understand what it means so it's easier to say atheist. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

AtlanticCitySlave

I think this thread would probably go smoother if we figured just what exactly is being argued here. Initially, the thread was stating that it is illogical to be either a theist or atheist (that it is an extraordinary claim), based on the belief that the term "God" is meaningless, and thus it would make no sense to affirm or deny the existence of a meaningless term. (However, unlike it was stated, a negative atheist would also fall into this camp, since many negative atheists don't assume the term "God" has no meaning.)

However, after several of us pointing out the term "God" may not be meaningless, the conversation shifted to a skeptical point of view concerning whether we know with 100% certainty whether or not God does exist or doesn't exist. The confusion, I think, is that the argument keeps jumping back, rather than sticking to the original point.
Personally, I don't really see anything more in this thread to argue. Strong atheism and theism do not require 100% certainty (as has been pointed out several times now), and any atheistic or theistic philosopher will acknowledge this. (Theistic philosophers often, especially Swinburne, try not to show 100% certainty concerning God's existence, since then there would be no room for faith.)
So, for my sake, what is the point of this thread any longer?

Detached9

You're gonna hurt yourself if you keep backpeddling like this: 'God can't be disproven, but I can disprove Faeries. Well, maybe not, but I can disprove bigfoot. Oh well, perhaps not. Why not ask me about Santa Clause? Oops!"

I was mistaken by claiming that faeries can be disproven. I admit that.

Bigfoot and Santa Claus on the other hand? Yes, they can be disproven. Since I had a clearer definition of Santa Claus than I did of Bigfoot, it was much easier to disprove the existence of Santa Claus.

In regards to strong atheism not claiming 100% certainty of God not existing... how does strong atheism differ from weak atheism then?

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: Detached9 ]</p>

John Page

Walrus:

I am not the one doing the believing - I am asking what do you hold as sufficient evidence?

Cheers, John

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: John Page ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

You do not seem to be aware of the fact that you have disproved absolutely nothing.

Jobar

Personally I think that a discussion of how many angels can't dance on the head of a pin would be just as profitable as this thread.

Autonemesis

Let me attempt to clarify.

Disprove Gor. What is Gor, you ask? A perfectly reasonable question.

Gor is the setting for a series of pulp fantasy novels. It is a planet that shares Earth's orbit, but on the opposite side of the Sun. There have been many fantasy and scifi stories written about an alternate Earth hidden the other side of the sun.

We know there is no Gor or any other planet opposite the Earth. How? We sent space probes to vantage points that can view the other side, and we looked. There was nothing there to see. Now it is conceivable that this planet is made of dark matter of some sort, or is cloaked, but now the explanations for how Gor could still be there despite our inability to see it are getting even more outlandish than the original claim that Gor is there on the other side of the sun.

The same goes for bigfoot. The explanations for why we haven't found one are more farfetched than the original claim that bigfoot exists. How long do we have to go without seeing one before we conclude that it does not exist?

I refuse to adopt the mode of speech of the Reformed Non-Aristotelian Druids of North America. I will not say "God seems not to exist", "Bigfoot seems not to exist", "Gor seems not to exist," and "I seem to be feeling hunger". <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Jayhawker Soule

And I refuse to do so as well.

When I assert that I am an atheist, I am not noting an absence of belief. I am asserting the strong belief that 'God' has, to date, shown itself to be an entirly worthless axiom. The fact that neither God, nor Bigfoot, nor the Faerie Kingdom can be 'disproven' is wholly irrelevant.