seebs

Yes, it rather is. Read the Nicene Creed. It doesn't say anything about scripture being word-for-word inerrant; that's a modern conceit, unsupported by any teaching of the faith.

Badfish

If you don't believe the scriptures how can you take an interpretational stance one way or the other and know that it's right?

Besides the Nicene was written by man, and does not encompass the nature and full scope of the scriptures, it is a statement of a general belief. It also doesn't say that the scriptures are errant, so considering the Nicene does not cover this aspect, I don't see where you are going with this.

Go back and read the thread at CF, Lasher said she does not believe the scriptures are true, well if the scriptures aren't true, then neither is the Nicene, because the scriptures inspired the Nicene.

seebs

The issue is this: I "believe the Bible", in that I think it's basically correct moral guidance. I don't "believe the Bible" in terms of thinking that every last word is literally true.

As to how you can "know" it's right, frankly, you can't - no mortal does. I know this because I can find multiple people who claim that they "know" their positions are right, but who believe different things. So, I know that when people think they "know" things, they are sometimes wrong... So I don't believe they "know", I just think they "believe".

The Nicene creed is very close to the formal definition of Christianity. The Bible's a book we read.

No, they didn't. Oral tradition inspired it; read your history. The idea of a formally encapsulated set of "scriptures" came long after the initial formation of the faith. The Bible isn't the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; it's the stuff that was seen as the best, most informative, the most likely to lead towards salvation. There are true things about God which are not mentioned in the Bible; there are people in the Bible who say things which are not true.

The scriptures are secondary to the relationship with God. I can find factual errors in the scriptures, and that's not a problem at all; we're *supposed* to think about this stuff, not just assume that every last word is flawless. The idea of the Bible being every word of God, and exclusively words which, taken out of context, are flawless and perfect, is a modern invention, and a very bad one.

Lynn of the Prairie

Everyone, especially those who claim they don't, "interprets" scripture.

Biblical literacism is a recent innovation by authoritarian church leaders to keep the flocks in line as a response to modern times, especially Darwin and Freud. It is not in line with traditional Christianity.

The Catholics are honest in that they say to them authority is vested in the church. Fundamentalists are dishonest in that when they say authority rests in the Bible, because they neglect to say that they claim the right to interpret it for others. It's a lot like Stalin's assertion that "It doesn't matter for whom the people vote. What matters is who counts the votes."

We are considering abandoning CF as a lost cause because of the toxicity there. I have never been treated so shabbily there as anywhere else, and that includes walking a patient past a crowd of anti-abortion protestor and being called "whore", "dyke", "slut" and "puta" by the alleged "Christian" protestors there.

Badfish

seebs, if you find factual errors I would like to see tham, and since you were not there when God inspired the bible, how can you be certain? Is your evidence trustworthy?

"The words of Yahweh are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times" --Psalms 12:6.


"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" --Isaiah 55:11.


[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



So then God is not capable of ensuring we have a correct copy of his word? He would purposely create errors or *allow* errors to deceive mankind and allow them to use these errors to lose faith?

So then if I believe you, I would have to presume that God lies and the above scriptures are not true, or he is just sadistic.

How can you reconcile the fact that God is so weak that he is not able to ensure his word be preserved and translated correctly throughout the generations.

The Bible is our guide for living and instruction. (James 1:22) (psalm 119:24, 104)

wildernesse

Badfish,

What do you think about the differing English translations of the Bible from KJV/NIV/NRS? These translations of the Bible are all somewhat different, in that they translate the text differently based on history or new linguistic findings, etc.

Which of these is the "correct" copy? Is there only one? Why would God allow different versions of the Bible to exist? Is he incapable of inspiring translators correctly? Does he allow them to make mistakes with his holy word--especially since if it is inerrant, even small changes corrupt it.

How do you reconcile the fact that there are multiple English translations of the Bible, if in fact God ensures that the inerrant-ness of his word is preserved and translated correctly every time?

What about before the canon was codified? The books that are in the apocrypha? Are they inerrant or not? Why not? How do you know?

None of the scriptures you cited say that the Bible is factually correct or inerrant: it is pure, it makes you wise, it is an inspiration and instruction in righteousness. All good things--but not claims of inerrant, source of all knowledge.

--tibac

Lynn of the Prairie

Of course, the do it all the time. They claim to believe in literal interpretation of scripture but always hem and haw and say "we-e-e-ell, that doesn't apply..." to what they don't like.

Fundamentalism is merely a smokescreen for authoritarianism IMO.

Azathoth

The Bible's not even close to being historically correct.I'm assuming historicity is one of the requirements for it to be an inerrant piece of work?

seebs

Mustard seeds.

These are both being taken out of context. Neither is talking about the "bible" - in fact, neither is even referring to the *gospels*, they're referring at most to the old testament, but much more likely simply to the *immediate context*. e.g., Psalms 12:1-5.


It's like "is God capable of ensuring we don't ever suffer". The *emperical observation* is that we suffer, and that we are confused about what the Bible says. We must then conclude that, if God exists, either He can't do otherwise, or He has very good reasons for doing so.

The loss of faith never came from the errors; it came from the false teaching that there could be no errors, that it would be *EASY* to understand the Bible.

No. If you believe me, you can accept that it is a *FLAWED INTERPRETATION*. Then the scripture can be *true* - but mean something other than what you thought it meant.

The same way I reoncile Him being "so weak" that He can't make a perfectly round thing with corners, or whatever other contradictions we wish to wave away; I don't think it makes *sense*... And for that matter, if it *did*, it might still be *undesirable*.

I have seen certainty, and arrogance, and I have seen doubt, and humility. The connection seems clear to me; it is *desirable* that we should spend a bit of time wondering what things mean, and knowing that we might be wrong.

Badfish

No man will know the mysteries of God, nothing can prove that we do not have a correct copy of God's inspired word.

There is more scripture, there is scripture that says it is correct down to the last "jot". There is scripture that says all generations will have a correct copy. (I believe in psalms, but am not going to look it up, because you will find a way to discredit it).

There is a lot more scripture, but since scripture can't prove scripture to you people, then what's the use? It's just a fruitless battle, and y'all will have to find God in your own way.