St. Robert

Yes, I would tell anyone (Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc.) that true eternal security comes from Jesus.

I believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the eternal atonement for the sins of all men and women. Jesus or Immanuel (God among us) restoring men and women to their original glory and true humanity by liberating them from their sin.

This truth about God or this at-one-ment with God only applies to those who are willing to enter into it by faith.

Buddhists - reject the truth of a personal God and therefore reject Jesus as Savior.

Jews - Some accept Jesus as their Messiah (the most Jewish thing a Jew could do.) Many continue to reject Jesus as they did 2000 years ago.

Muslim - Rejects the truth that Jesus is God the Son, died on the cross, and was raised from the dead. Strangely, according to the Koran, they do believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and had the power to raise the dead, which points to His divinity from a Christian perspective.

Hindu - Practically worships everything as God. They have millions of gods and godesses. No devotion to an all holy and an all righteous God. Jesus spoke out against the notion of karma and reincaration.

The Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. has to assess for themselves, if their beliefs are giving them true fulfillment. If the beliefs they follow are not true, then what good is their devotion? What good does it do a person to believe in a God that doesn't exist or disbelief in a God who does exist? People can easily be deceived by a false sense of fulfillment. Believing anyone including Jesus requires a risk to be taken.

Thanks for your polite questions.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

HelenM

I suppose that most people here, if they felt a lack of fulfillment, would deal with it a different way.

Helen

jess

very interesting...

St. Robert, you said I don't understand the obsession with sin and 'the fall' that people have, although I was raised with it. I can't understand how anyone can look at this world and study its history and come away with the idea that people are evil and needed a savior.

What do I need to be saved from? How did Jesus' death on the cross save me from anything?

I'm confused--- fufillment is an emotion--- are you really happy or do you just think you're happy? is a foolish question. And, in addition, I would argue that 'fufillment' must come from within, not without. You can't rely on anyone else to make you happy, or to fufill you...

Why did you pick Jesus to believe in? What was it about him that rang true to you?

thanks...

Perchance

There are so many different kinds of truth, though, and definitions of it. Would this one necessarily apply to an atheist?

Funny, I would have said that the bottom line for an atheist would be, "Should I get up in the morning?" or something similar. After all, there are many religions that an atheist might study or choose among that don't have this concept.

Hmmm. So do you think it's possible that other people can get along fine without that sense of fulfillment, and therefore without Jesus?

-Perchance.

St. Robert

Jesus claimed to be the absolute and exclusive source of truth. If a person truly wants truth, they will go to Jesus. If not, the devil offers a worldful of other cheap forms of 'truth' from which to choose.

True eternal fulfillment comes from one source, Jesus Christ.

Keith Russell

St. Robert:

Reality is truth.

Jesus is only a claim.

Tested against the truth of reality, the claim of Jesus comes up lacking.

And that's the truth.

Keith.

St. Robert

Is that your best attempt at logic? Surely, you can do better than that.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

Brian63

Should a Christian's belief in God and Christianity even be rational and logic-based, or should they be based on "faith?"

Yes, I see the two as being exclusive, but of course I am open to being convinced otherwise.

Brian

Silent Dave

My question was, do you use the phrase "the way, the truth, the life" when talking to them?

I'll take that as no. That leads to a few more questions:

* What are some valid criteria for determining what is and is not historical truth?

* Did you apply these criteria in choosing to accept the message and resurrection of Jesus as historical truth?

* If at some point you discovered that there is more of a basis for the historical truth of the message and ascension of the prophet Muhammed than there is for the message and resurrection of Jesus, would you then become a Muslim, regardless of whatever personal fulfillment would be gained or lost in the process?

* If you were to sit down, look at all the evidence objectively, and decide -- based on the facts, and your own reasoning -- that there is no good historical or philosophical evidence for the existence of any gods, would you still believe in the Christian god?

And finally,

* If you were on trial for a capital crime, and your freedom depended on your being able to convince a jury that you are not being deceived by a false sense of fulfillment, could you?


Edited to add a few more questions for Robert:

* If you had been born in the Middle East, in a place geographically and culturally isolated from any Christian influence, is it likely that you would have become a Christian?

* How many books which argue for atheism have you read? Name them (and be prepared to answer questions about any which you name).

* Do you think that Christians should continue to seek truth and question their beliefs even after they have become Christians?

* Have you asked any atheists whether they have continued to seek truth and question their beliefs even after they have become atheists? What have they told you?

Finally (for real this time ):

* You say that any religious belief is a risk. Do you think that belief in the Christian God is a risk worth taking? What about belief in the Muslim god?


Dave

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Silent Dave ]</p>

Silent Dave

Are you saying, Robert, that mere assertions are not sufficient to warrant belief in propositions?


Dave