Bible Humper

Hello Ansarthemystic,

Thanks for the scoop on Barnabas!

I don't think that any christians will respond to you though, I doubt they relish the thought of a theist vs theist battle royale with us infidels as referees!!!

Buffman

As I mentioned to you before, I don't believe in the supernatural. However, many people do.

<a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html" target="_blank">http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html</a>

I believe that all these so-called holy/sacred books were written/compiled/selected by men for men in order to gain personal power and control over others psychologically and then physically. Obviously you enjoy your supernatural beliefs just as much as the Christians, Jews, Hindus and others enjoy theirs. When you have some testable evidence to support your supernatural claims, which you have already admitted that you don't, I will be pleased to discuss it with you. Until that time, I am afraid that I must view your posts as merely those of another human being whose critical reasoning mind has been blocked to any rational examination of their own faith beliefs.

ansarthemystic

A few christians have responded to me, but have not answered the questions at all!

Some have wondered what is the point of this?Well let me answer without four long wordy post. IN light of the Gospel of Barnabas, a disciple of Jesus(PBUH), who wrote his gospels with his own hand, and specifically stated that Jesus(PBUH)denied being divine, and specifically named Muhammad(PBUH)as a prophet, What is the christian basis of denial of Muhammad's prophethood?

What do christians think gave the Church fathers the RIGHT to eliminate over 300 apochryphal books?
Will it be denied that the church eliminated all books that disproved the Trinity, the Resurrection, the Crucifixion,and the divinity of Jesus(PBUH)?

I sure would appreciate an "infidel" referee!

peace and blessings

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: ansarthemystic ]</p>

ansarthemystic

I admitted that ONLY that I have no evidence that you or many rationalists can accept!

Why are you lumping me with the other theists? I believe in the Unseen, NOT the supernatural. If something is natural, that means that is is normal, existent IN nature. Can people not see that if god is supernatural, it does and can NOT exist!

So what is the difference between the unseen and the superenatural? What about subatomic particles? Were they not unseen until the proper methods were available to see them? Is something really non-existent because it is unseen or there is a lack of method to observe it? Will anyone deny that "spirit" is a type of energy? Can we see energy? Does energy require a physical lattice to maintain it's coherence.

YOU WROTE: "Until that time, I am afraid that I must view your posts as merely those of another human being whose critical reasoning mind has been blocked to any rational examination of their own faith beliefs."

I really would appreciate it if you ask me what my beliefs are instead of lumping me with other theists. You may not believe it but Islam IS scientific, and in the Qur'an we are told to question everything we are told, not to accept anything on blind faith, EXCEPT for the existence of the Unseen. My critical reasoning mind has not been blocked by any irrationality, trust me, for ten LONG YEARS I HAVE RATIONALLY QUESTIONED EVEYTHING ABOUT ISLAM, and no I am not yelling at you.I just think your post was uncalled for in what will obviously become a theological discussion. You already don't believe in the "Supernatural". So why don't you start a post about verifiable evidence(or lack of evidence) of the existence of the "unseen", or direct me to the appropriate existing threads, and we will talk!

peace and blessings

Demigawd

Achilles killed Hector. The Illiad is proof of this.

Buffman

ansarthemystic

I admitted that ONLY that I have no evidence that you or many rationalists can accept!

If the Scientific Method of sifting fact from fiction is one used by rationalists (and myself), then so be it. If I can't see, hear or interview your angels, I have no reason to believe you when you claim they exist. Your entire system of religious belief is based on faith, not fact. That is why there are over 4200 different faith systems... each claiming that theirs is the only correct and true one.

Why are you lumping me with the other theists?

Like it or not, that's what you are...a faith believer.

I believe in the Unseen, NOT the supernatural. If something is natural, that means that is is normal, existent IN nature. Can people not see that if god is supernatural, it does and can NOT exist!
So what is the difference between the unseen and the superenatural?

Might I suggest that you open a dictionary and do some careful reading. (Supernatural = "Attributed to the immediate exercise of divine power, miraculous.")

What about subatomic particles? Were they not unseen until the proper methods were available to see them?

Absolutely correct. And how do you suppose we learned how to make the instruments to see them? Not by praying five times a day, or saying that God works in mysterious ways.

Is something really non-existent because it is unseen or there is a lack of method to observe it?

Please let me know when you have developed the instruments and method to see and hear your God. I would like to take a look and listen. However, I am not about to take your word for it. (I once worked a summer at a place where many people talked to their "unseen'" Gods and friends all day long. Of course they were the only ones who could ever see or hear them.)

Will anyone deny that "spirit" is a type of energy?

First you would need to provide your definition of "spirit." However, since the entire 'Known" universe is composed of energy in one form or another, I think it is safe to conclude that regardless of your definition, "spirit" will prove to be a form of energy.

Can we see energy? Does energy require a physical lattice to maintain it's coherence.

(Be at Ground Zero when an H-bomb goes off.) Is all energy self aware? Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but it can be transformed. We are nothing but a transformation of stardust that became self-aware while living. When we die, we are transformed into other forms of energy...that is not self-aware...that I can see.

YOU WROTE: "Until that time, I am afraid that I must view your posts as merely those of another human being whose critical reasoning mind has been blocked to any rational examination of their own faith beliefs." I really would appreciate it if you ask me what my beliefs are instead of lumping me with other theists.

The fact that you seem to believe that your faith beliefs are different than those of all the other faith believers is not new or surprising. I honestly don't care to listen to the ranting of another faith believer claiming that they are the only one who knows the true faith belief. I recommend you go discuss your faith beliefs with the other 4199 faith believer groups. I have wasted enough of my life listening to this poppycock.

You may not believe it but Islam IS scientific, and in the Qur'an we are told to question everything we are told, not to accept anything on blind faith, EXCEPT for the existence of the Unseen.

Muhahahaha! And exactly why do you suppose that you are "forbidden" to question/examine/test the "Unseen?" Might it be that you would discover that the reason that it is "Unseen" is because it isn't there? (The Emperor has no clothes.)

My critical reasoning mind has not been blocked by any irrationality, trust me, for ten LONG YEARS I HAVE RATIONALLY QUESTIONED EVEYTHING ABOUT ISLAM,...

Then you have just lied to yourself. You have not "rationally and critically" questioned the "Unseen." (PLease note: I did not claim that you were irrational. I claimed that you had not rationally and critically examined the, so-labeled, "Unseen" part of your faith belief. You have admitted as much.)

... and no I am not yelling at you.

Yell away! Jump up and down and turn blue for all I care. I have been involved with faith beliefs for 67 years whether I wished to be or not. Sooooo? I am still awaiting the testable evidence that there is anything more than the wondrous and challenging mysteries of the natural world...and its many still "Unseen" things.

I just think your post was uncalled for in what will obviously become a theological discussion.

I can certainly appreciate and support you right to hold that opinion...especially in a Secular Web Forum. However, I'm afraid that I will continue to express my opinions in the manner best suited for my personal belief system regardless of how they might disagree with your own. Besides, you posted three items in a row. I chose to answer only on one. If you like, I will provide my opinions on your other posts as well.

You already don't believe in the "Supernatural". So why don't you start a post about verifiable evidence(or lack of evidence) of the existence of the "unseen", or direct me to the appropriate existing threads, and we will talk!

Might I recommend that you go to the II Philosophical Forums and pick the one that most interests you. However, I must decline your offer to follow so we can talk. There are many far more capable than I located in those forums whom you will find more than just a little stimulating. Peace and accurate knowledge be with you...always.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi</a>

ansarthemystic

YOU WROTE:If the Scientific Method of sifting fact from fiction is one used by rationalists (and myself), then so be it. If I can't see, hear or interview your angels, I have no reason to believe you when you claim they exist. Your entire system of religious belief is based on faith, not fact. That is why there are over 4200 different faith systems... each claiming that theirs is the only correct and true one.

This is where you are wrong. Without knowing my entire system of belief you can NOT make this statement and be accurate. The Qur'an supports evolution,the Big Bang, the expanding universe, The spherical earth. These are now considered scientific facts. What happens when someone believes something(FAITH) and later finds that it is true. It then becomes knowledge. Therefore as a muslim I do NOT BELIEVE in evolution, a spherical earth, the Big Bang,etc...I know them to be facts just as you do.

YOU WROTE:Might I suggest that you open a dictionary and do some careful reading. (Supernatural = "Attributed to the immediate exercise of divine power, miraculous.")

Might I suggest you realize that this definiton is in terms of religious language!If something is supernatural it is either outside of nature or more than nature. If something is natural then it exists normally. Anything outside of this simply is non-existent.Period.
Might I also suggest that one need not be married to a dictionary definiton that does not convey the proper understanding. Let's go with your logic for a moment...a philosopher is defined as Sophist 1. a fallacious reasoner.
Might I also suggest to you the dictionary definitons of supernatural that you left out: 1.of or relating to to an order of existence beyond the visible OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE, 2.departing from what is normal especially so as to APPEAR to transcend the laws of nature.

YOU WROTE:Absolutely correct. And how do you suppose we learned how to make the instruments to see them? Not by praying five times a day, or saying that God works in mysterious ways.

Your ignorance is astounding! The purpose of the five time a day prayer is not this!LEARNING TO MAKE INSTRUMENTS IS A RESULT OF EXPERIMENTATION.

YOU WROTE lease let me know when you have developed the instruments and method to see and hear your God. I would like to take a look and listen. However, I am not about to take your word for it. (I once worked a summer at a place where many people talked to their "unseen'" Gods and friends all day long. Of course they were the only ones who could ever see or hear them.)

Honestly, all you need to do is open your eyes. You have been blinded by what you THINK is rationalism,and sophistry,seemingly sound but false argumentation.The first question of that line is a baiting question...so I leave it alone.Do you deny Existence then?Existence is the verifiable proof of Allah(SWT), because god is the whole of Existence( and note this is not pantheism!)

YOU WROTE:First you would need to provide your definition of "spirit." However, since the entire 'Known" universe is composed of energy in one form or another, I think it is safe to conclude that regardless of your definition, "spirit" will prove to be a form of energy.

Of course!

YOU WROTE:We are nothing but a transformation of stardust that became self-aware while living. When we die, we are transformed into other forms of energy...that is not self-aware...that I can see.

Can you prove we are stardust? Can you prove that we are NOT transformed into forms of energy that are self-aware simply because you can not see it?

YOU WROTE:The fact that you seem to believe that your faith beliefs are different than those of all the other faith believers is not new or surprising. I honestly don't care to listen to the ranting of another faith believer claiming that they are the only one who knows the true faith belief. I recommend you go discuss your faith beliefs with the other 4199 faith believer groups. I have wasted enough of my life listening to this poppycock.

Personal opinion and emotions block rational thinking!Did I claim to hold the true faith belief? Did I rant that I did? No!
Does similarity make two thing identical? You can call me a faith believer, but that still does not allow you to treat me or any other faith believers as the same. We can call all people human, but are all people identical because of this extreme similarity?

YOU WROTE:Muhahahaha! And exactly why do you suppose that you are "forbidden" to question/examine/test the "Unseen?" Might it be that you would discover that the reason that it is "Unseen" is because it isn't there? (The Emperor has no clothes.)

It's really not funny! What if I decided that nothing unseen existed. What would have happened to my "knowledge" when heretofore unseen subatomic particles were seen and shown to exist?

YOU WROTE:Then you have just lied to yourself. You have not "rationally and critically" questioned the "Unseen." (PLease note: I did not claim that you were irrational. I claimed that you had not rationally and critically examined the, so-labeled, "Unseen" part of your faith belief. You have admitted as much.)

I admitted no such thing! What I said was that it would be wrong to totally deny that the unseen is possible.You can not possibly know, without me telling you so, whether or not I have rationally examined the "unseen".And I have, which is why I have no absolute conclusions on the matter. Once again you are lumoping me with others. I have always stated that I BELIEVE Allah exists, not that I KNOW it.

peace and blessings

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: ansarthemystic ]</p>

Buffman

ansarthemystic

Did you write this or didn't you?

You may not believe it but Islam IS scientific, and in the Qur'an we are told to question everything we are told, not to accept anything on blind faith, EXCEPT for the existence of the Unseen.

I wrote this:

Muhahahaha! And exactly why do you suppose that you are "forbidden" to question/examine/test the "Unseen?" Might it be that you would discover that the reason that it is "Unseen" is because it isn't there? (The Emperor has no clothes.)

and this:

Then you have just lied to yourself. You have not "rationally and critically" questioned the "Unseen." (Please note: I did not claim that you were irrational. I claimed that you had not rationally and critically examined the, so-labeled, "Unseen" part of your faith belief. You have admitted as much.)

Now you write this:

I admitted no such thing! What I said was that it would be wrong to totally deny that the unseen is possible.You can not possibly know, without me telling you so, whether or not I have rationally examined the "unseen".And I have, which is why I have no absolute conclusions on the matter. Once again you are lumoping me with others. I have always stated that I BELIEVE Allah exists, not that I KNOW it.

OK! So you didn't follow all the teachings in the Qur'an. So prove how you went about rationally examining the "unseen." (How did you question the ANGEL?) When you say something different from all the others, I'll stop lumping you with them. --- I have no problem with you believing whatever you wish. I do have a problem when you expect me to understand why you believe what you do based solely on faith belief and not the slightest amount of testable evidence.

Naturally religionists "now" believe what has been scientifically validated. Oh, by-the-way, the "Big Bang" is still open to considerable investigation whether the "Qur'an" supports it or not. I'll even bet that if it were to turn out that the Big Bang is not the answer, the Qur'an could be shown to have supported something else. That's one of the poetic beauties of sacred writings. Believers can twist them to support or deny just about anything accept that there are no divine or sacred Gods/beings/miracles.

Radcliffe Emerson

removed

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

ansarthemystic

Have I really gone against any teaching of the Qur'an? You presume too much! Have I denied the existence of the unseen? Did the Qur'an say NOT to analyze or attempt to analyze the veracity of the existence of the Unseen. I still believe in the Unseen,and I have been investigating the nature of the unseen, and, as I have said, I have not come to absolute conclusions, but my belief remains intact.

As for the slightest evidence, I ask you to confidently deny the existence of existence.

As far as the Big Bang is concerned it is true, whether or not the particular's have not been totally determined by science.Believers may twist scriptures but I do not!

As far as I am concerned, if you refuse to take me as an INDIVIDUAL,one with Islamic beliefs, our conversation is over,

I wish you peace and blessings always