Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 03-23-2003, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
I don't believe that anyone who has been truly born again can become un-born. So that solution is not a possibility in my mind.

I see that; but, how do you know, if you encounter someone who now doesn't believe but says they once considered themselves born-again, that in fact they never were born-again?

On what basis does your belief take precedence over their experience?

I think you'd have the same problem that people here are having, if they said to you "I'm sorry but you most definitely are not a Christian because my beliefs say you can't be one".

Wouldn't you find that rather strange? Would you say "Oh, then you must be right; your beliefs clearly take precedence over my experience"!

Helen

Christian · 03-23-2003, 03:55 AM

Helen,

Quote:

In spite of what you said in the first quote above, the second quote implies that in fact, you do think the absolute term 'no-one', because in the second quote you said 'if you had known Christ you still would'. That's an absolute statement.

The reason I did not make the absolute claim in response to you question is that I don't know the future. The possibility exists that someone truly knew Christ, that they are currently backslidden and posting here as an "athiest", and that they will once again acknowledge their relationship with Christ in the future. That possibility (presumably slim, but who am I to say) is why I worded my response to you the way I did.

I do believe that if you are truly transformed inwardly by the Spirit you cannot get un-transformed. You are "stuck" with being a new creation.

Quote:

And I maintain that there are people here (and elsewhere) who are adamant in not believing in Christ now, that were you able to go back in time, you would have been convinced were 'True Christians' based on any measuring stick you believed valid, for assessing whether they were or not.

As I said before, I have no doubt that is the case. There are many false Christians, most of them believe that they are Christians, and the majority give every appearance of being Christian. It is the state of the heart that matters, and that is between God and the individual follower of Christ.

There are accurate scriptural tests of salvation. But you can only take them for yourself. I cannot speak with certainty for what is in anyone elses heart.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-23-2003, 04:05 AM

Helen,

I don't think any of the former Christians here are lying. I do not discount their experience in that way.

But what the former Christians here are describing (at least on this thread) is not the experience of having been born again.

Perhaps someone will come along and describe a similar experience of the Christian life to what I have found. If that is the case I will have much less to say.

But the lengthy post that Carrie began this thread with virtually screamed "no inward transformation." I know what this inward transformation is like, and Carrie's opening post was a thesis in having no trace of it.

In Carrie's case, if she described her experiences accurately I am confident in claiming that she was never born again.

Besides ... the consensus among former Christians so far is that they never actually had a relationship with the living God. I am merely agreeing with that part of thier assessment.

Respectfully,

Christian

HelenM · 03-23-2003, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
Besides ... the consensus among former Christians so far is that they never actually had a relationship with the living God. I am merely agreeing with that part of thier assessment.

But of course they would say they never actually had a relationship with the living God, because they don't believe in God!

The relevant question is, did they ever believe they had a relationship with God?

It could be that those who have posted on this thread so far did not ever believe that in the way you believe it of yourself.

Nevertheless, I have definitely come across others who did believe so, once.

Helen

Christian · 03-23-2003, 04:46 AM

Helen,

There are many people in the world today who believe they have a relationship with Christ but who really don't. If that is not a valid criteria for the present, it's surely not a valid criteria in retrospect.

Respectfully,

Christian

Gregg · 03-23-2003, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
Helen,

There are many people in the world today who believe they have a relationship with Christ but who really don't. If that is not a valid criteria for the present, it's surely not a valid criteria in retrospect.

Respectfully,

Christian

This just begs the question--how do you know YOU are not one of those people who sincerely believe they have a relationship with Christ but really don't?

Anyway, I have taken the bull by the horns and put up a NEW post in which I ask "former" Christians to describe their Christian experience. I am looking for people who used to genuinely believe they had Christ's presence within them, and felt that their lives were transformed inwardly and outwardly by this presence, but later decided that their experience was not of something spiritual or supernatural.

Gregg

HelenM · 03-23-2003, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
There are many people in the world today who believe they have a relationship with Christ but who really don't.

Then...how do you know you're not one of them?

I'm just asking...

[edited to add, Gregg, I see you beat me to it!

]

Helen

Magus55 · 03-23-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
Then...how do you know you're not one of them?

I'm just asking...

[edited to add, Gregg, I see you beat me to it! ]

Helen

Because the people who have a true relationship with Christ, live their life for him and for him only. Those who don't just say they are Christian because it has become a societal title. Just like, Caucasian, African-American, CEO, Christian.

Those who have a true relationship with Christ also don't turn their back on him and insult his name all day. If you so easily gave up on him and don't love him now, more than likely you never really did.

Infidelettante · 03-23-2003, 11:53 AM

JT,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That you seriously think there is some test in the Bible that will, after thirty years, reveal to me whether I was a Christian or not only reveals how irrational your thinking is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In what way is that irrational?
To think that there is a test in the Bible that can reveal whether I was ever a true Christian thirty years after I rejected Christ is irrational. What part of that statement are you unable to translate?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could I or you have a relationship with a dead man?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We cannot. He is alive.
No Christian, he is dead. Were he alive he would be here. That he is not is here is proof that he is either dead or that he is unconcerned about the suffering of his creation.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My education serves no purpose but to point out that my experiance with Christianity is deeper and longer than yours and that my experiance is first hand not second hand or third hand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I submit that there is a vast difference between experiencing �Christianity� (however you are defining that term) and experiencing Christ. Where you went to college or who you rubbed elbows with has zero to do with whether you knew Christ. It�s irrelevant data.
Once again, is it difficult for you to translate English? My *experiance* of Christianity [however you choose to define it] is closer, deeper ,and longer than yours. In any endeavor other than*your* Christianity formal training would trump second and third hand knowledge. That you, who admittedly can not begin to approch my level of education on this subject attempts to tell me what is true about it makes me wonder if you are capable of knowing what irrelevent means.
quote:
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I do not claim to know Christ. I claim to know Christianity and Christians and to know them better than you do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you validate my initial assertion on this thread. Former �Christians� never actually knew Christ in the first place.
Redux, he is dead.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look up *condescending* when you have a moment. Had you called me a liar or a really bad person I would not have accused you of condescension. You seem to have trouble with definitions. I'm quite sure I'm not the first to notice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In what way am I acting superior? I only claim to be more fortunate than you, not smarter or more experienced or more insightful.
Suggestion for Christian: Should you need a refresher on condescension reread all your own posts.
If I am defining terms inaccurately, then please do correct me. I�m willing to use almost any set of definitions you care to establish in a conversation with you.
The time everyone on this forum has spent defining terms for you leads me to think it is a lost cause.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I am saying is that there are only false Christians and that some of them discover the truth and others never do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A rational opinion for you to hold, since you have never known Christ. As I told Carrie, that would be my opinion as well if I had never known Christ. Few things are as distasteful to me as intellectual dishonesty.
Is it a closely held belief of yours that anyone who expresses the fact that over the years they may have changed their mind is guilty of intellectual dishonesty or do you [again] not understand the meaning of the term?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have accused me of not knowing the difference between my experiance of believing in Christianity and my experiance of knowing Christianity is false.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have made no such accusation. I�ve only accused you of not knowing Christ ... something that you openly state as being the case in your last post.
You have accused me of not knowing my own mind in regard to a subject I am better suited to judge than you and this by your own admission.
Christian
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The difference in our definitions of *actual Christians* is beyond any *definitional framework.* I will take the word of any who says * I was once a Christian and now I am not* at face value. You will not. How can we agree on a definitional framework if you are free to call them deluded at best and liars at worst? If you are happy to make incorrect assumptions about who I am and what I think I am happy to call you on it.
JT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Christian is anyone who claims to be. OK. That renders the term basically meaningless for me. So I�ll again state my opinion without using that term:
Yes, a Christian is anyone who claims to be. Is there some secret handshake I missed? Some mark under the hair? Do you glow in the dark? That you find some terms meaningless is no surprise to me.
My position is still that you never actually knew Christ (which you admit to openly), and that if you had known Christ you still would.
My position is that it is not possible to have a personal relationship with a dead man and, that some once claimed to have had such a relationship and came to understand that to be false and, to say that they never really understood the nature of that relationship in the first respect or the second is disrespectful and condescending.

JT

theIPU · 03-23-2003, 01:01 PM

Christian, you say Jesus is alive? Where does he live? I'd love to meet him.

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03-23-2003, 04:05 AM	#43
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	Helen, I don't think any of the former Christians here are lying. I do not discount their experience in that way. But what the former Christians here are describing (at least on this thread) is not the experience of having been born again. Perhaps someone will come along and describe a similar experience of the Christian life to what I have found. If that is the case I will have much less to say. But the lengthy post that Carrie began this thread with virtually screamed "no inward transformation." I know what this inward transformation is like, and Carrie's opening post was a thesis in having no trace of it. In Carrie's case, if she described her experiences accurately I am confident in claiming that she was never born again. Besides ... the consensus among former Christians so far is that they never actually had a relationship with the living God. I am merely agreeing with that part of thier assessment. Respectfully, Christian

03-23-2003, 04:46 AM	#45
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	Helen, There are many people in the world today who believe they have a relationship with Christ but who really don't. If that is not a valid criteria for the present, it's surely not a valid criteria in retrospect. Respectfully, Christian

03-23-2003, 11:53 AM	#49
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	JT, quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That you seriously think there is some test in the Bible that will, after thirty years, reveal to me whether I was a Christian or not only reveals how irrational your thinking is. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In what way is that irrational? To think that there is a test in the Bible that can reveal whether I was ever a true Christian thirty years after I rejected Christ is irrational. What part of that statement are you unable to translate? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How could I or you have a relationship with a dead man? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We cannot. He is alive. No Christian, he is dead. Were he alive he would be here. That he is not is here is proof that he is either dead or that he is unconcerned about the suffering of his creation. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My education serves no purpose but to point out that my experiance with Christianity is deeper and longer than yours and that my experiance is first hand not second hand or third hand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I submit that there is a vast difference between experiencing �Christianity� (however you are defining that term) and experiencing Christ. Where you went to college or who you rubbed elbows with has zero to do with whether you knew Christ. It�s irrelevant data. Once again, is it difficult for you to translate English? My experiance of Christianity [however you choose to define it] is closer, deeper ,and longer than yours. In any endeavor other thanyour Christianity formal training would trump second and third hand knowledge. That you, who admittedly can not begin to approch my level of education on this subject attempts to tell me what is true about it makes me wonder if you are capable of knowing what irrelevent means. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not claim to know Christ. I claim to know Christianity and Christians and to know them better than you do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you validate my initial assertion on this thread. Former �Christians� never actually knew Christ in the first place. Redux, he is dead. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look up condescending when you have a moment. Had you called me a liar or a really bad person I would not have accused you of condescension. You seem to have trouble with definitions. I'm quite sure I'm not the first to notice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In what way am I acting superior? I only claim to be more fortunate than you, not smarter or more experienced or more insightful. Suggestion for Christian: Should you need a refresher on condescension reread all your own posts. If I am defining terms inaccurately, then please do correct me. I�m willing to use almost any set of definitions you care to establish in a conversation with you. The time everyone on this forum has spent defining terms for you leads me to think it is a lost cause. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What I am saying is that there are only false Christians and that some of them discover the truth and others never do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A rational opinion for you to hold, since you have never known Christ. As I told Carrie, that would be my opinion as well if I had never known Christ. Few things are as distasteful to me as intellectual dishonesty. Is it a closely held belief of yours that anyone who expresses the fact that over the years they may have changed their mind is guilty of intellectual dishonesty or do you [again] not understand the meaning of the term? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have accused me of not knowing the difference between my experiance of believing in Christianity and my experiance of knowing Christianity is false. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have made no such accusation. I�ve only accused you of not knowing Christ ... something that you openly state as being the case in your last post. You have accused me of not knowing my own mind in regard to a subject I am better suited to judge than you and this by your own admission. Christian quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The difference in our definitions of actual Christians is beyond any definitional framework. I will take the word of any who says * I was once a Christian and now I am not* at face value. You will not. How can we agree on a definitional framework if you are free to call them deluded at best and liars at worst? If you are happy to make incorrect assumptions about who I am and what I think I am happy to call you on it. JT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Christian is anyone who claims to be. OK. That renders the term basically meaningless for me. So I�ll again state my opinion without using that term: Yes, a Christian is anyone who claims to be. Is there some secret handshake I missed? Some mark under the hair? Do you glow in the dark? That you find some terms meaningless is no surprise to me. My position is still that you never actually knew Christ (which you admit to openly), and that if you had known Christ you still would. My position is that it is not possible to have a personal relationship with a dead man and, that some once claimed to have had such a relationship and came to understand that to be false and, to say that they never really understood the nature of that relationship in the first respect or the second is disrespectful and condescending. JT

03-23-2003, 01:01 PM	#50
theIPU Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 65	Christian, you say Jesus is alive? Where does he live? I'd love to meet him.

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