DMB

I sympathise with your predicament. You were not born a muslim; no-one is. You were born into a muslim community and absorbed islamic ideas from an early age because they were all around you and everyone was telling you that they represented the most important truths. It's a fair bet that you were not all that much exposed to contrary views either. So no wonder you are a muslim.

Try to make the necessary leap to imagine what it would have been like if you had been born into a southern baptist family in the bible belt of the USA. You would have absorbed that particular flavour of xianity from your earliest years. You would know that the only authentic book was the holy bible. You would know that avoidance of hell required fervent belief and trust in Jesus, the son of God. You would know that the so-called "prophet" Muhammad was a tool of Satan and that God would punish muslims for their false beliefs.

Now try to make a further leap of imagination to where I stand. Although I was exposed during childhood to a great deal of xian indoctrination, I was never obliged to declare myself a xian. When I look at muslims and xians and view their competing claims to unique knowledge of the great truths and the will of God, as well as their competing holy books, what do I see?

I see two competing power bases, responsible for much misery in the world, both based on ideas that were formulated in a pre-scientific age and which have limited relevance for modern human societies. Their holy books are deeply flawed and are clearly human, rather than divine, constructions. If one ignores the holy books, which one should, there is no independent evidence for the existence of any god, let alone the gods of the bible or the koran. That is not to say that we know there are no gods; we simply do not know whether any such exist or what their characteristics might be.

If you are looking seriously at these questions, you must ask yourself how one could know that the koran is superior to the bible. How could one know that it was given by God to Muhammad rather than just made up by Muhammad?

Then ask yourself, in view of what we now know about the universe, why its creator (if there should be one) would be interested in whether you eat pork or are circumcised or go to Mecca. One can explain observances such as these in terms of human social evolution, but it's harder to see why they would matter to an all-powerful god.

I wish you well in your search.

christ-on-a-stick

Farren....

:notworthy

That is all

aatayyab

Well, I don't think a word THANK YOU can suffice my feelings to whatever was expressd by you all. Since I am not naming anyone here should not discourage you as in my humble opinion, if anyone of us say one word or a billion words, we are all equal. Having said that, there comes the difference that religion and belief in God gave me. As I said, I was a "born muslim" in a very strict religious society of Pakistan. Instead of getting into debate of whether a human is or not a "born relgious", I would try to focus more on my quest towards finding truth about God.

My question is simple "Does God exist out there?" If you ask my personal opinion, I have nothing to tell you except those feelings that whenever I believed in God and whenever I tried to do "anythng" during the course of my strong belief, something HAPPENED. Most of the time, it was good and it always gave me a satisfaction in my conscience. Made my spirits up and feeling quite light after that. Whenever I believed God is not there, I felt alone. I thought of suicide. I was sad. I was desperate. I was totally out of focus.

so, you see, i do feel good about God whenever i have so-called feeling of his presence around me. It may be a fantasy or just anything, but i just wanted to let you know how i feel personally since childhood.

Ronin

A brilliant summation, Farren.

aatayyab ~ you will find that atheists are fully inspired by the beauty of nature in plain view and motivated by compassion not generated by fear or religious coercion.

So, as an atheist and a humanist, I find a sincere and deep devotion to the full experience of this one life and all of the daring adventure that it entails.

For me, the welfare of humankind is the primary notion and not the welfare of any supernatural and unprovable God or Gods.

Hopefully this may clear up any mischaracterizations you may have developed regarding the non-belief in deities.

Enai

Bert Brecht, german communist, atheist and great author wrote:

THE QUESTION WHETHER A GOD EXISTS

Someone asked Herrn K. whether or not a god exists. Herr K. said: "I'd advise you to think about whether or not your behaviour would change depending on the answer to your question. If it wouldn't change, we can drop the question. If it would change, I can help you insofar as to tell you that you've already decided: You need a god."

I don't have anything to add. Brecht says it so much better than me.

Enai

Bumble Bee Tuna

well this is out there but Muslim refers to "follower of Islam" whereas muslim refers to "submission to the will of God". He used muslim, so I could see how he could make the claim that we are born muslim (though I find it ridiculous).

That being said, aatayyab- you're asking for a good reason not to believe in Allah. The best one out there? Well, you're already using it!

Why don't you believe in Zeus? Vishnu? Krishna? Leprechauns? An invisible pink unicorn flying around Jupiter?

No evidence.

I doubt this is enough reason for a religiously indoctrinated man such as yourself, but for almost all of us infidels, that's the biggest reason. There is no evidence that God exists. Therefore, we assume he does not.

-B

DMB

I find it interesting that you should write this. I suspect that what you are illustrating is something fundamental about human nature, and therefore neither tending to prove nor disprove the existence of a god.

When I was a child, my father told me that I could achieve whatever I wanted, provided that I wanted it enough and believed that I could do it. I found that this was largely true and that, if I wanted something enough and had a strong self-belief, it HAPPENED. Now I am much older (30 years older than you, aatayyab), I realise that this is to do with concentration. Most of my goals don't seem crucial to me, so I don't give them everything I've got. With the ones that really do matter, I keep focused on the goal and put in a tremendous amount of effort, as well as believing in my capabilities despite setbacks. I don't think that I need any supernatural explanation as to why I succeed in these odd, important objectives and fail in so many others where I don't muster up the necessary self-belief or concentrated attention.

Of course, the successes feed one's self-confidence, and help the next time when one really wants something. The failures, on the other hand, erode one's self=esteem and make one feel bad.

Dargo

Personally I don't know if there is some sort of god or gods somewhere in the universe. However I am convinced that such being(s) if they do exist have no interest in the affairs of humans. Why do I believe this? Imagine that you are the owner of a company. Some of your employees have gotten into an arguement. Joe claims that you have named him the new manager, Fred, claims that he is the manager and Mary claims that she is the manager. All three of these have completely different ideas about how the company should be run. Obviously, if you were to call a company meeting, clarify the situation, and probably fire Joe, Fred, and Mary, the problem would be resolved quickly. You don't do that. You just hide away in the Bahamas, never return any one's calls or emails, and just sit back and let the bickering of Fred, Joe, and Mary, drive your company into bankrupcy. This is no way to run a business. Why would god sit back and do nothing while competing people claim to be his exclusive spokeman? A true deity could easily stand up and clarify the situation. Much human misery has been caused be frauds claiming to speak for god. A merciful god would never allow this to happen. That means that god is either unable or unwilling to prevent it. I find the unable due to nonexistance the most likely explanation. I can't rule out an uncaring god, but since such a god will do nothing to help us, for all practicle purposes he doesn't exist.

emotional

What do you mean "out there"? If you're looking for scientific evidence or proof for God, then I'm sorry but I advise you to give up right now. God is not a matter of scientific investigation. There is no evidence or proof that God exists. I don't know God exists, I only believe He does.

In olden days, faith was easy, for it was synonymous with reason and consonant with evidence. With a geocentric cosmos and special creation, it was reasonable to believe in a designer (God) and a purpose (the Afterlife). But now, with the advance of science, those assurances are melted like snow under the sun. All the arguments for God's existence have been refuted, and it is more reasonable not to believe in God and the Afterlife than to believe. Our times, therefore, call for pure faith, faith which is independent of reason and evidence. I believe in God and the Afterlife just because, without reason and without evidence. Not because it is reasonable, nor because there is compelling evidence, but because the alternative - that there is no God and that there is no Afterlife - is abhorrent to me.

River

If the world is Predestined to "ultimately" follow a certain path, then it really doesnt matter what religion anyone follows.