Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cydonia · 03-03-2003, 07:04 PM

I'm wondering if similar "realizations" have come to some of you if you were xtians or theists who were very pre-occupied with God and sin and hell and fear of the almighty, but last night it just kind of hit me,

I'm not really afraid of Jesus/Satan anymore.

when I first started coming here, (at the suggestion of Bane, a cool cat I knew from anther website) I was terrifed. Hours and hours of scouring xtian criticism, buying tons of books,
trying to find the loopholes that maybe the Good Book isn't all it's cracked up to be and that I wasn't going to HELL!

I'm not sure if that's what "God Fearing" means, but I was definitely afraid.

I grew up being bombarded with Jesus, my mother still prays for my soul, I became a hard core new-ager, (science of mind, trying to manifest my desires effortlessly and spontaneously courtesey deepak chopra) but I think that all that new age stuff was just me re-directing the fear into its opposite extreme. I also realize that just because the people I love believe in Jesus isn't evidence He exists or existed in the form they think. They may think they have perfect Knowledge, but I dare say by now I probably have more knowledge of the faith and its history than they do.

It still creeps in, but in more of a philosophic way. This morning I was walking and I was blown away by the beauty of the sunrise, and I remember I used to think that it was "God's painting". Then I remembered a quote I read here, I can't remember who said it, something like "can't you see a garden is beautiful without imagining little faeries flying around it?"

That's one of the difficult things, where does beauty fit into it, surely beauty and art and culture are all evidence of the divine? I don't know how to think about those things outside the context of religion. As an artist I know it's something I need to deal with.

Anyway I guess I'm going on and on, but if I didn't document it here with people who know the feeling I might forget that I've reached sort of a milestone without even realizing it.

philechat · 03-03-2003, 07:37 PM

Beauty has nothing to do with the existence of a personal God or not. Indeed it is possible to create and appreciate beauty, and to attain mystical experiences, without any beliefs in the divine (though I admit I am not a pure materialist). The sheer number of irreligious writers, composers, and painters (actually out of proportion from the general population) should attest to the fact.

Think the idea of our imagination. We can like a play by Shakespeare even if we know the characters do not exist in "the real world". Keats used the idea of "negative capability" to explain how beauty could be made ex-nihilo, and Debussy called beauty "the mysterious affinity between Nature and human imagination". They are all powerful non-religious declarations on the nature of beauty, as long as we are receptive to our experiences.

cydonia · 03-03-2003, 07:46 PM

Thanks for those examples. I could do with seeking out more non-religious takes on creativity and wonder.

thebeave · 03-04-2003, 06:38 AM

As a longtime lover of the outdoors, I can relate to your feelings about Nature's beautiful creations, like sunsets and mountains, and it often is tempting to attribute it to God. And, of course, many people use the beauty and awe arguement as evidence of God. However, you should recognize that emotions such as these are merely creations of your brain. To give you an analogy, the other day a friend of mine sighed and pointed out an incredibly shapely woman and said, somewhat facetiously, "That right there is proof of God". And I told him that it was beautiful only because his brain has evolved to see it as beautiful. Those shapely breasts are nothing more than big globs of carbonaceaous fat and flesh with a funny brown knob on top that our brains have decided we men should risk life and limb for. As far as a male slug is concerned, that same woman is about as thrilling as rock (perhaps less so). Or she may even be something to be feared. But show that same slug a female slug and its, "Yeah....baby... gimme some of that slime you hot mollusk you!". [Less you ladies out there think I'm being sexist, one could make the same arguement about the human male penis. I mean, come on, how could that dorky looking thing be considered attractive by anyone but a human female]. I think the beauty of nature works the same way, although the reasons why we perceive it as beautiful or awe inspiring are not as obvious. Probably some evolutionary advantage that is not totally clear (at least not to me).

Vicar Philip · 03-04-2003, 07:25 AM

Well put, thebeave!! Thanks.

HelenM · 03-04-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cydonia
Thanks for those examples. I could do with seeking out more non-religious takes on creativity and wonder.

When I think of creativity and wonder, I think of young children. They see something and say "Wow!!!" without caring about why we perceive beauty the way we do, or how it's explained in scientific or evolutionary terms.

I think we adults make things too complicated sometimes

. The things we find beautiful or fill us with wonder may change as we grow up but I think we can still appreciate them in childlike ways, which to me means we let ourselves simply and fully enjoy the emotions of the moment, even if it is somewhat of a mystery to us 'why' we are having the emotional response we are having.

Helen

Bane · 03-04-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

at the suggestion of Bane, a cool cat I knew from anther website

I can also leap tall buildings in a single bound.

Quote:

Then I remembered a quote I read here, I can't remember who said it, something like "can't you see a garden is beautiful without imagining little faeries flying around it?"

Douglas Adams I believe.

Nice post Cy. I'm glad you're overcoming the fear of of hell that was instilled into you.

cydonia · 03-05-2003, 06:24 PM

Thanks, Thundercat

Shake · 03-12-2003, 10:24 AM

Well, if you look here, I'm sure you'll find that there are plenty of other folks who felt a great relief/release upon letting go of religion. Be it from guilt or fear or whatever, for many of us, it was an uplifting experience to be free of the chains of our earlier religious beliefs. It's also exciting to think about the journey ahead of you, especially now that you're not burdened down by thoughts like, "Am I still going to heaven?" Live your life. I think it's the humanists who say simply, "Do no harm." That's pretty good, IMHO!

Well put, Helen. I'm experiencing some of that through my son, who turned 2 in late November. It's amazing what captures his attention, and what makes him laugh! Adults need children to teach us that not everything is as complicated as we make them out to be.

03-03-2003, 07:04 PM	#1
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	a sign of (personal) progress? I'm wondering if similar "realizations" have come to some of you if you were xtians or theists who were very pre-occupied with God and sin and hell and fear of the almighty, but last night it just kind of hit me, I'm not really afraid of Jesus/Satan anymore. when I first started coming here, (at the suggestion of Bane, a cool cat I knew from anther website) I was terrifed. Hours and hours of scouring xtian criticism, buying tons of books, trying to find the loopholes that maybe the Good Book isn't all it's cracked up to be and that I wasn't going to HELL! I'm not sure if that's what "God Fearing" means, but I was definitely afraid. I grew up being bombarded with Jesus, my mother still prays for my soul, I became a hard core new-ager, (science of mind, trying to manifest my desires effortlessly and spontaneously courtesey deepak chopra) but I think that all that new age stuff was just me re-directing the fear into its opposite extreme. I also realize that just because the people I love believe in Jesus isn't evidence He exists or existed in the form they think. They may think they have perfect Knowledge, but I dare say by now I probably have more knowledge of the faith and its history than they do. It still creeps in, but in more of a philosophic way. This morning I was walking and I was blown away by the beauty of the sunrise, and I remember I used to think that it was "God's painting". Then I remembered a quote I read here, I can't remember who said it, something like "can't you see a garden is beautiful without imagining little faeries flying around it?" That's one of the difficult things, where does beauty fit into it, surely beauty and art and culture are all evidence of the divine? I don't know how to think about those things outside the context of religion. As an artist I know it's something I need to deal with. Anyway I guess I'm going on and on, but if I didn't document it here with people who know the feeling I might forget that I've reached sort of a milestone without even realizing it.

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03-03-2003, 07:37 PM	#2
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	Beauty has nothing to do with the existence of a personal God or not. Indeed it is possible to create and appreciate beauty, and to attain mystical experiences, without any beliefs in the divine (though I admit I am not a pure materialist). The sheer number of irreligious writers, composers, and painters (actually out of proportion from the general population) should attest to the fact. Think the idea of our imagination. We can like a play by Shakespeare even if we know the characters do not exist in "the real world". Keats used the idea of "negative capability" to explain how beauty could be made ex-nihilo, and Debussy called beauty "the mysterious affinity between Nature and human imagination". They are all powerful non-religious declarations on the nature of beauty, as long as we are receptive to our experiences.

03-03-2003, 07:46 PM	#3
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Thanks for those examples. I could do with seeking out more non-religious takes on creativity and wonder.

03-04-2003, 06:38 AM	#4
thebeave Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 4,183	As a longtime lover of the outdoors, I can relate to your feelings about Nature's beautiful creations, like sunsets and mountains, and it often is tempting to attribute it to God. And, of course, many people use the beauty and awe arguement as evidence of God. However, you should recognize that emotions such as these are merely creations of your brain. To give you an analogy, the other day a friend of mine sighed and pointed out an incredibly shapely woman and said, somewhat facetiously, "That right there is proof of God". And I told him that it was beautiful only because his brain has evolved to see it as beautiful. Those shapely breasts are nothing more than big globs of carbonaceaous fat and flesh with a funny brown knob on top that our brains have decided we men should risk life and limb for. As far as a male slug is concerned, that same woman is about as thrilling as rock (perhaps less so). Or she may even be something to be feared. But show that same slug a female slug and its, "Yeah....baby... gimme some of that slime you hot mollusk you!". [Less you ladies out there think I'm being sexist, one could make the same arguement about the human male penis. I mean, come on, how could that dorky looking thing be considered attractive by anyone but a human female]. I think the beauty of nature works the same way, although the reasons why we perceive it as beautiful or awe inspiring are not as obvious. Probably some evolutionary advantage that is not totally clear (at least not to me).

03-04-2003, 07:25 AM	#5
Vicar Philip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cozy little chapel of me own Posts: 1,162	Well put, thebeave!! Thanks.

03-05-2003, 06:24 PM	#8
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Thanks, Thundercat

03-12-2003, 10:24 AM	#9
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Well, if you look here, I'm sure you'll find that there are plenty of other folks who felt a great relief/release upon letting go of religion. Be it from guilt or fear or whatever, for many of us, it was an uplifting experience to be free of the chains of our earlier religious beliefs. It's also exciting to think about the journey ahead of you, especially now that you're not burdened down by thoughts like, "Am I still going to heaven?" Live your life. I think it's the humanists who say simply, "Do no harm." That's pretty good, IMHO! Well put, Helen. I'm experiencing some of that through my son, who turned 2 in late November. It's amazing what captures his attention, and what makes him laugh! Adults need children to teach us that not everything is as complicated as we make them out to be.

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