Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ensign Steve · 07-09-2003, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Don't many Christians think non-Christians believe stupid things

Actually, they think non-Christians don't believe stupid things.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

YAY!!!

don't be sorry

fatherphil · 07-09-2003, 02:37 PM

do everyone a favor and avoid Christians at all cost.

JGL53 · 07-09-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
do everyone a favor and avoid Christians at all cost.

Especially fatherphil.

Mageth · 07-09-2003, 02:50 PM

do everyone a favor and avoid Christians at all cost.

That's from the Bible, isn't it? Sermon on the Mount, right?

Keith · 07-09-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

"The best reason to understand something is wrong, is does it help me or hurt me?"

Now I see where you're coming from. But this isn't a MORAL answer to what/why something is morally wrong, you are just advocating an arbitrary system of amoral expediancy.

My point is that atheism has serious philosophical problems and one such problem is it's inability to point to an objective moral foundation. For this, and other reasons, Carrie need not label Christianity (or Christians as a group) "stupid". As I have shown, atheism suffers from its own inherent philosophical embarrassments and deficiencies.

Mageth · 07-09-2003, 03:00 PM

My point is that atheism has serious philosophical problems and one such problem is it's inability to point to an objective moral foundation.

First you must establish the need for an "objective" moral foundation. And I would argue that theism (specifically, xianity) has the same problem; the "objective moral foundation" xianity points to can be and has been interpreted in so many ways, with large parts of it deemed no longer relevant, that it can hardly be deemed "objective."

So what exactly, and where, is this xian "objective moral foundation"? If its objective, you should be able to describe it in detail for me, and I would assume that at least the majority, if not all, xians should agree on it.

Ensign Steve · 07-09-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
My point is that atheism has serious philosophical problems and one such problem is it's inability to point to an objective moral foundation. For this, and other reasons, Carrie need not label Christianity (or Christians as a group) "stupid".

Atheism is unable to point to an objective moral foundation.
Therefore, Christianity is not stupid.

?? How does that follow?

Quote:

As I have shown, atheism suffers from its own inherent philosophical embarrassments and deficiencies.

Atheism isn't a group or a philosophy. It is a lack of a belief in a specific thing. Whether or not individual atheists suffer from philosophical embarrassments and deficiencies (as all humans do at least and some points during a lifetime of discovery), has absolutely no bearing on the truth.

JGL53 · 07-09-2003, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
.... My point is that atheism has serious philosophical problems and one such problem is it's inability to point to an objective moral foundation....

Atheism is not a philosophy, it the non-belief in the existence of any god. Each individual atheist is required to work out for him/herself an individual moral code. Is there something wrong with that?

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
... As I have shown, atheism suffers from its own inherent philosophical embarrassments and deficiencies.

E.g., I've been an atheist since July 13, 1977. Since that time I have failed to be embarrassed about anything to do with MY atheism, nor have I been aware of any 'deficiencies' associated with MY atheism (i.e, I am not responsible for others). I seem to fit in fairly well with the rest of society. During that time I worked at the same job, and have now retired. I have plenty of friends, and have never been arrested. So, what problems exactly is atheism supposed to have caused for me for the last 26 years of my life that I am apparently blind to or unaware of - please enlighten me, Keith.

Carrie · 07-09-2003, 10:44 PM

Good stuff people. Criticism and all. Bring it on.

brighid · 07-10-2003, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Doesn't it depend on the group? I mean, would one be morally justified in feeling angry and generalizing a whole group of Nazis? Or child-molestors? I'm sure there are plenty of Nazis who are intelligent and have a great sense of humor and are fun to shop with, but I still feel completely justified to prejudging anybody who identifies themselves as part of that group, based upon what the group represents.

I suppose you could come to some general ideas about individuals based on group participation, but regardless each person deserves to be judged on the basis of character and action. However, this can paint one into a very bad spot. Someone may be accussed of child molestation, but actually be innocent. One may also be associated with Nazism because one is of German decent, but that does not make one a Nazi. I would also say that comparing Nazis and child molestors with Christians is wrong, even if some Christians were Nazis and some Christians are child molestors.

As far as the OP goes, particularly with Christians, and given the very wide and divergent thoughts, beliefs and practices amongst them it is morally indefensible to hate, by angry with and categorize ALL Christians based on negative experiences with some. I think many Christian people identify themselves as such, but don't hold or act on the views and beliefs we, as atheists find so abhorrent and/or irrational, silly, etc.

Furthermore, and no doubt there are plenty of things an individual might think, feel, or believe that others find silly, irrational, etc. but those things do not make one unworthy of friendship, or lack value as a human being. Heck, I still have a hard time believing Ricky Martin is gay or bi, but all my friends tell me I am silly and my gaydar must be broken

Generalizing people by group affiliation is a dangerous, slippery slope that should be avoided whenever possible, even in difficult situations.

Brighid

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07-09-2003, 02:37 PM	#22
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	do everyone a favor and avoid Christians at all cost.

07-09-2003, 02:50 PM	#24
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	do everyone a favor and avoid Christians at all cost. That's from the Bible, isn't it? Sermon on the Mount, right?

07-09-2003, 03:00 PM	#26
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	My point is that atheism has serious philosophical problems and one such problem is it's inability to point to an objective moral foundation. First you must establish the need for an "objective" moral foundation. And I would argue that theism (specifically, xianity) has the same problem; the "objective moral foundation" xianity points to can be and has been interpreted in so many ways, with large parts of it deemed no longer relevant, that it can hardly be deemed "objective." So what exactly, and where, is this xian "objective moral foundation"? If its objective, you should be able to describe it in detail for me, and I would assume that at least the majority, if not all, xians should agree on it.

07-09-2003, 10:44 PM	#29
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Good stuff people. Criticism and all. Bring it on.

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