punkersluta

Mageth...

I only said that I was not going to argue continuously against things you tend to repeat, unless you were capable of producing some evidence. To those others who are genuinly interested in arguing or find some serious flaw with Vegetarianism, I will answer.

"We can excuse, in part, the crimes of passion. We take into consideration the fact that man is liable to be caught by the whirlwind, and that from a brain on fire the soul rushes to a crime. But what excuse can ingenuity form for a man who deliberately -- with an un-accelerated pulse -- with the calmness of John Calvin at the murder of Serviettes -- seeks, with curious and cunning knives, in the living, quivering flesh of a dog, for all the throbbing nerves of pain? The wretches who commit these infamous crimes pretend that they are working for the good of man; that they are actuated by philanthropy; and that their pity for the sufferings of the human race drives out all pity for the animals they slowly torture to death. But those who are incapable of pitying animals are, as a matter of fact, incapable of pitying men. A physician who would cut a living rabbit in pieces -- laying bare the nerves, denuding them with knives, pulling them out with forceps -- would not hesitate to try experiments with men and women for the gratification of his curiosity. To settle some theory, he would trifle with the life of any patient in his power. By the same reasoning he will justify the vivisection of animals and patients. He will say that it is better that a few animals should suffer than that one human being should die; and that it is far better that one patient should die, if through the sacrifice of that one, several may be saved. Brain without heart is far more dangerous than heart without brain." - Robert Green Ingersoll [Vivisection, by Robert Green Ingersoll, A letter written to Philip G. Peabody. May 27, 1890.]

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spin

Jon asks Punkerslut:
----------------------------
I noticed you're replying for Spin... Are you the same person perhaps?
----------------------------

Of course, we're the same person dealing with all these sorts of quibbles so differently. Haven't you noticed how similar our temperaments and our styles of argument are?? Perhaps if you reviewed the posts written under each name, you might be able to answer your own question.

punkersluta

Jon Up North...

Aye, I can see how you can make such an observation.

"Whatever my own pratice may be, I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came in contact with the more civilized." - Henry David Thoreau [Quoted from Animals' Rights Considered In Relation To Social Progress, by Henry S. Salt, chapter 4, 1894.]

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Aethernaut

spin & punkersluta,

Just curious. Do you now or have you ever worn or accessorized with leather in any form? Jackets, shirts, pants, shoes, gloves, belts, hats, wallets, backpacks, watchbands, bracelets, necklaces?

-SK

punkersluta

I once played for a Hockey team. When they gave out team jackets, we got leather-armed ones. I still have mine, but it sits collecting dust in my closet. If I wear a jacket, it's my black trench coat. I do not avoid wearing my leather-armed jacket because I have a moral dilemma with wearing it, but (1) I would feel uncomfortable wearing something taken from my "kin" who were so vainly slaughtered, (2) I would fall victim to the slur of "hypocrit." Purchasing such a jacket, and making a contribution to the industry so it can slaughter more, is immoral.

"The unpardonable forgetfulness in which the lower animals have hitherto been left by the moralists of Europe is well known. It is pretended that the beasts have no rights. They persuade themselves that our conduct in regard to them has nothing to do with morals, or (to speak the language of their morality) that we have no duties towards animals: a doctrine revolting, gross, and barbarous, peculiar to the west, and having its root in Judaism. In philosophy, however, it is made to rest upon a hypothesis, admitted, in despite of evidence itself, of an absolute difference between man and beast. It is Descartes who has proclaimed it in the clearest and most decisive manner; and in fact it was a necessary consequence of his errors. The Cartesian - Lebnitzian - Wolfian philosophy, with the assistance of entirely abstract notions, had built up the 'rational psychology,' and constructed an immortal anima rationalis: but, visibly, the world of beasts, with its very natural claims, stood up against this exclusive monopoly -- this brevet of immortality decreed to man alone -- and silently Nature did what she always does is such cases -- she protested. Our philosophers, feeling their scientific conscience quite disturbed, were forced to attempt to consolidate their 'rational psychology' by the aid of empiricism. They therefore set themselves to work to hollow out between man and beast an enormous abyss, of an immeasurable width; by this they wish to prove to us, in contempt of evidence, an impassable difference." - Arthur Schopenhauer [Schopenhauer's "Foundation of Morality." Quoted from Animals' Rights Considered In Relation To Social Progress, by Henry S. Salt, chapter 1, 1894.]

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bonduca

Punkster - do you read anything at all published after 1950?

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

punkersluta

Bonduca...

Of course. Peter Singer, but that's probably it. I'm a fan of Ingersoll (who died 1899), Shelley (who died 1821), Paine (who died around 1808), Salt (who died around 1942), among others.

"The grand source of the unmerited and superfluous misery of beasts exists in a defect in the constitution of all communities. No human government, I believe, has ever recognized the jus animalium, which ought surely to form a part of the jurisprudence of every system founded on the principles of justice and humanity." - John Lawrence [John Lawrence, "Philosophical Treatise on the Moral Duties of Man towards the Brute Creation," 1796. Quoted from Animals' Rights Considered In Relation To Social Progress, by Henry S. Salt, chapter 1, 1894.]

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bonduca

I am wondering if you or spin actually intended to convert anyone with this filibuster? By the time I have waded through ten-page long posts, much of it from the late 1800's, I am ready to rip open some hapless farm animal with my bare hands. Just what are you trying to accomplish here?

punkersluta

Bonduca...

Although I seriously doubt you would believe me, but we are trying to educate our fellow man -- not to make him humane, but to give him the tools to be humane. To offer logic, reasoning, evidence, insights, etc.. I understand how such a debate can be immensley frustrating for both sides. However, the primary purpose of my Vegetarianism threads are, well, to educate.

"...the manner in which we ignore individuality in the lower animals is simply astonishing.... quite sure that most of the cruelties which are perpetrated on the animals are due to the habit of considering them as mere machines without susceptibilities, without reason, and without the capacity of a future." - Rev. J. G. Wood ["Man and Beast, here and hereafter," 1874, by Rev. J. G. Wood. Quote from Animals' Rights Considered In Relation To Social Progress, by Henry S. Salt, chapter 1, 1894.]

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spin

SK:
-----------
Do you now or have you ever worn or accessorized with leather in any form?
-----------

Whether I have ever worn any of these things is somewhat irrelevant, don't you think? Perhaps you'd like to know about from the time I stopped eating meat.

Jackets --- all fabric

shirts ---- animal product shirts? (No)

pants ----- grin, who would want to?

shoes ----- it is difficult, to get
serious non-leather shoes,
but you'll find runners
that have no leather

gloves ---- all knitted

belts ----- plastic

hats ------ don't have any

wallets --- who needs a wallet?

backpacks - leather backpacks?
You got me. I've never
seen such a thing

watchbands,
bracelets,
necklaces - don't wear any of these.