Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yguy · 06-13-2003, 10:23 AM

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Originally posted by scigirl
Here's a question for the audience

Sorry kiddo, it's a public forum.

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- why do homophobes and anti-gay/lesbian-rights people insist on this fact?

If it's a fact, why should one not insist on it?

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Why does yguy think it's totally ok to discriminate against someone for something a person chooses. Such as, perhaps, religion? Can any rational person explain this to me?

There's an idea. If we were able somehow to get homosexuality to be perceived as a religion, the first amendment would prevent Congress from enacting laws in its favor.

Seriously though, I think that if I'm hit on by a homosexual, I should be able to say, "Get the hell away from me, perv." Likewise should anyone be able to tell a pushy religionist to get lost with the equivalent level of emphasis. I believe I've made myself abundantly, even abrasively clear on that in the Secular Forums.

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I'm so tired of gay and lesbian bigotry - will we ever see the day when people like yguy realize the error of their ways, like as yguy pointed out, we did with slavery (finally)?

Admitting you're wrong when you're wrong is right. Saying you're wrong when you're right is wrong.

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It's funny that he points that out, yet he can't see his own unfounded bigotry staring him in the face.

Pedophilia advocates think homosexuals who consider them perverts are bigots too.

Bree · 06-13-2003, 10:33 AM

Back up: let's look at the whole "gays are experiencing gender confusion" bit. yguy, I'd love to hear you expand upon this statement. From the small explanation you offered on earlier pages, it appears you believe that each partnership must have a person in the "male" role and a person in the "female" role. I can only assume you mean both in the domestic capacity and in a sexual capacity (one dominant, one submissive).

I would like to hear the basis for this.

PS: How many gay couples do you know?

Bree · 06-13-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
Pedophilia advocates think homosexuals who consider them perverts are bigots too.

Pedophilia and homosexuality differ in that pedophiliacs' actions harm someone: the child who has been coerced into sexual activity against his or her will. Homosexual activity is between two consenting adults.

NHGH · 06-13-2003, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
...Seriously though, I think that if I'm hit on by a homosexual, I should be able to say, "Get the hell away from me, perv."

Has anybody suggested otherwise? I think we're all just arguing (at least I am) that gays should have the right to marry, not that they should have the right to marry you...

scigirl · 06-13-2003, 12:33 PM

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yguy:
The parallel doesn't work unless you can show that homosexuality is as much a product of genetics as skin color.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

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The range of expression of homosexuality and its association with certain cultural, environmental, and genetic factors are most consistent with the concept of a multifactorial trait. Additionally, genetic heterogeneity in this phenotype (alternative mutants corresponding to a single phenotype) is highly probable. In certain nonhuman and presumably in human species the normal sexual development of the hypothalamus is guided by an appropriate exposure to androgen at a critical early stage, and this in turn presumably contributes to sociopsychologic sex development. Particularly instructive in this regard have been the monogenic experiments of nature in man--XY females with insensitivity to androgens, congenital adrenal hyperplasia, and male pseudohermaphrodites (5-alpha-reductase deficiency). Additionally, in the human, sociopsychologic sex also appears to be molded by sex assigned at birth and sex of rearing. Several of the intersexuality syndromes and psychoses are accompanied by increased homosexuality, but a majority of homosexuals are not in these categories. A limited number of family studies, including twins, tentatively suggests a heritable risk, at least in some families.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

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Human sexual orientation has a heritable component.

Pillard RC, Bailey JM.

Department of Psychiatry, Boston University School of Medicine, MA 02118, USA.

We present an overview of behavioral genetics research on homosexual and heterosexual orientation. Family, twin, and adoptee studies indicate that homosexuality and thus heterosexuality run in families. Sibling, twin, and adoptee concordance rates are compatible with the hypothesis that genes account for at least half of the variance in sexual orientation. We note observations of homosexual behavior in animal species, but the analogy to human sexual orientation is unclear. We discuss the reproductive disadvantage of a homosexual orientation and present possible mechanisms that could maintain a balanced polymorphism in human populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

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Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women.

Bailey JM, Pillard RC, Neale MC, Agyei Y.

Department of Psychology, Northwestern University, Evanston, Ill 60208.

Homosexual female probands with monozygotic cotwins, dizygotic cotwins, or adoptive sisters were recruited using homophile publications. Sexual orientation of relatives was assessed either by asking relatives directly, or, when this was impossible, by asking the probands. Of the relatives whose sexual orientation could be confidently rated, 34 (48%) of 71 monozygotic cotwins, six (16%) of 37 dizygotic cotwins, and two (6%) of 35 adoptive sisters were homosexual. Probands also reported 10 (14%) nontwin biologic sisters to be homosexual, although those sisters were not contacted to confirm their orientations. Heritabilities were significant using a wide range of assumptions about both the base rate of homosexuality in the population and ascertainment bias. The likelihood that a monozygotic cotwin would also be homosexual was unrelated to measured characteristics of the proband such as self-reported history of childhood gender nonconformity. Concordant monozygotic twins reported similar levels of childhood gender nonconformity.

So it looks like it has a 50% concordance rate, which is great news for yguy. He only has to reduce his bigotry by 50%, instead of 100% (if it was purely genetic).

scigirl

Autonemesis · 06-13-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by me
I don't know of any straights who committed suicide because they felt they had failed to turn gay, thus disappointing their parents. Do you?

Originally posted by yguy
No. What of it? Am I to blame for homosexuals who committed suicide?

No, you missed the point, as usual. There is no pressure on straight kids to turn gay. There is nothing but pressure on gay kids to turn straight, even to the point of driving them to suicide. This is the powerful heterosexual indoctrination and propaganda I am referring to, but media and advertising reinforce it.

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Originally posted by me
Surely you realize that what marriage (or any other tradition) means is specific to a culture, a place and a time? In our time and our culture (I assume USA) it's meaning is almost so diffuse as to be specific to one couple or one family.

Originally posted by yguy
How fortunate for those who would rejoice at the downfall of this country.

Pardon me? Where did anyone rejoice? Listen carefully, Chicken Little: people have been crying about the downfall of this country, and they've been doing it for 200+ years. So what? They're all wrong so far, why should I give you any more credence than the rest of the crackpots? You sound just like them.

If people marrying for a variety of reasons is the downfall of our society, then rejoicing or mouring that will not change anything. People get married for reasons that mean something to them. They couldn't care less what you think of their reasons, or what anyone else thinks. It isn't about you. Why do you homophobes think everything is about you? Every sideways glance is an advance, any disagreement is persecution.

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Again, I'm not concerned with the consensus view. A society in which children are generally a secondary motive for marriage cannot last.

No society can last. They all change into something else eventually. The American colonial society didn't last, it too changed into something else, despite any romantic ideas you may have about their family life. BIG DEAL. Societies come and go.

What's really your problem? That your archaic views on sexuality are not as prevalent as they once were, therefore society is doomed? That's all your entire argument amounts to, and it's rather silly. Once again, you think it's all about you when it's anything BUT.

yelyos · 06-13-2003, 12:40 PM

Here's the latest update on this story:

A House of Commons (Canadian equivalent to the House of Representatives) committee just voted in favour of not appealing the decision of the Ontario Court of Appeals. We still haven't heard from the Minister of Justice, but it's very likely that at this point he will decide not to appeal.

http://canada.com/national/story.asp...2-B938E1133BB7

keyser_soze · 06-13-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yelyos
Here's the latest update on this story:

A House of Commons (Canadian equivalent to the House of Representatives) committee just voted in favour of not appealing the decision of the Ontario Court of Appeals. We still haven't heard from the Minister of Justice, but it's very likely that at this point he will decide not to appeal.

http://canada.com/national/story.asp...2-B938E1133BB7

Excellent! Maybe our jackass leaders here will stop bowing to the fundie churches and try to join the 20th century(I'd say 21st century is WAY beyond them).

Autonemesis · 06-13-2003, 02:04 PM

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Originally posted by yguy
How you could get that idea I don't know. I'm talking about the media proclivity for portraying homosexuals as, in many cases, more "together" than heteros - of glorifying the lifestyle.

Examples, please? I haven't any idea what you're referring to, so please point me in the right direction. Surely, if it's so pervasive, an example or two would not be hard to come up with?

Autonemesis · 06-13-2003, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
Thirty years ago, it was unsubstantiated hyperbole that acceptance of homosexuality would open the door to acceptance of pedophilia. ]

Thirty years ago, we didn't have Megan's Laws requiring public registration of sex offenders. Tolerance for pedophilia is much less than it was in earlier decades. People today are much less willing to cover it up or sweep it under the rug, or tolerate those who do, than they were 30 years ago, or even the last decade. In fact, intolerance is so sharp that people can be ruined just by the mere accusation, even if they are fully acquitted in court. These cases used to not even MAKE it into court in the "good old days" that you apparently yearn for.

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06-13-2003, 10:33 AM	#142
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Back up: let's look at the whole "gays are experiencing gender confusion" bit. yguy, I'd love to hear you expand upon this statement. From the small explanation you offered on earlier pages, it appears you believe that each partnership must have a person in the "male" role and a person in the "female" role. I can only assume you mean both in the domestic capacity and in a sexual capacity (one dominant, one submissive). I would like to hear the basis for this. PS: How many gay couples do you know?

06-13-2003, 12:40 PM	#147
yelyos Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: northern suburbs of Toronto, Canada Posts: 401	Here's the latest update on this story: A House of Commons (Canadian equivalent to the House of Representatives) committee just voted in favour of not appealing the decision of the Ontario Court of Appeals. We still haven't heard from the Minister of Justice, but it's very likely that at this point he will decide not to appeal. http://canada.com/national/story.asp...2-B938E1133BB7

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