haverbob

I am very intrigued by the stuff you are saying (and quoting) on this thread. Out of curiousity, have you ever had the courage to say to Allah (silently in your mind) "thanks for making me, but I don't need you anymore" or anything similar to that? I have, but I wanted to get your opinion on that.

River

-Y'all

Its pretty weird the way you guys are all projecting your disillusionment with Christianity, hoping that Islam shares the same inconsistencies, and contradictions.

But the truth is Christianity as a religion is against Natural Law. This has to do with the implication that too much knowledge is dangerous from the story of the 2 Trees.

Islam, however has always been pro-science. From its birth . There are over 900 verses in the Quran that describe natural phenomena accurately. The Quran describes the Big Bang, Origins of Life from water, stages of Embryology and even intricate concepts as plants having gender.

Christianity describes the Universe being made in 7 days as well as a Global flood. Islam has the Universe being in 6 "Eras" and has a Regional flood. Christianity has the world existing for 6,000 years. No such concept in Islam.

How do you simply expect a Muslim to embrace Atheism? It is not as easy for us as it is for You! Why do you generalise, believing that the attitude of all religions are the same. Why Do you try to confuse us just because you found a hole in Christianity?

haverbob

I was sincerely hoping you could help me out with that question I asked you. It will give me a better idea of where you are coming from.

River

I could in theory say that, but in all truth that would be ridiculous. Even if I say it out of rebellion , I would realize that I am wrong. I was created, designed, programmed. As a medical student and a science major during my undergrad years I have come to the conclusion that everything, including science proves G-d's existence and that Islam ( as it appears in the Quran) is the most practical path for a modern society. I hate the way man corrupted Islam ( i.e Taliban, Turkey , Saudi Arabia) and I just wish these oppressors and dictators will go away so that Islam can return to the way it used to be , when it was considered the most advanced civilisation for 1100 years. I have read dozens of religious scriptures, and I must admit the Quran does not follow the patterns of other religious texts. However, most people give up too early on the Quran...sometimes due to shoddy translations ...sometimes due to other reasons.

haverbob

I like alot of the stuff you say. You are not some sort of crackpot or unreasonable "Holy Roller"

However, I'm not sure that I completely agree with this, but that's a different matter.

At this stage in your life, why do you need God anyway?

DMB

River: I would strongly suggest that you read this book before making claims about islam and science. It is by a distinguished Pakistani physicist who demolishes this sort of ridiculous "you can find everything in the koran" stance.

You are the one who is leaping to conclusions. I have never been a xian and have long been interested in islam. I also know quite a few atheists who are former muslims.

I may say that your attitude is not uncommon among muslims. Many muslims claim all sorts of things for islam on very little evidence, such as that it is "the perfect religion" or that it is without contradictions. The one I like is that the koran must have a divine origin because no-one can write a plausible verse from the koran.

There is also the harking back to a supposed golden age. The main reason why it worked then and doesn't work now was that for its time it was tolerant and open-minded, characteristics that are now shunned by a majority of muslims.

Islam has enjoyed considerable success mainly because of its emphasis on brainwashing and its coerciveness. If it is so good, why should people be compelled to embrace and stay with islam?

River

The Quran , although it does have numerous scientific verses...... as a rule it is not considered a book of "Science". It is a book of "Signs". I do not believe you will find the structure of the 20 amino acids in the Quran ( atleast to my knowledge). Everything relevant is in the Quran. However, I do not believe mankind as whole will find " Everything". Some verses are Esoteric and beyond the realm of ordinary thinking. Everything , on a Pragmatic sense is in the Quran. It is a book of Guidance. However, people differ in their belief in the level of its applicability. Some Muslims , Islamic beliefs are more of a Private affair than a Public. Others believe that it is impossible to utilise the Quran , efficiently in politics and its best to use the Quran in social domains. Everything is opinion ....and you are free to believe in what you believe....but in truth Islam has survived longer than most other Ideologies and has the potential to be Awakened again, productively.

lpetrich

River:
Do you ever see the Beauty , when a child is born, when You come home to your wife,

So What? I'm sure that rotting meat smells like absolute perfume to flies.

when a muezzin recites a verse from the Quran.

We don't care much for that -- we prefer to read translations whenever possible.

Do you see how humanity has defied all odds, how certain things can not be explained by Mathematics or Probability. Do you ever wonder why no other animal has developed a " civilisation' , "movies" , " transportation" and the like.

Most likely a side effect of having very big brains. Consider what people have done with computers over the decades. The faster and more capacious they get, the more people do with them.

everyone is born muslim " Submitting to the Will of G-d", even those that proclaim themselves atheist for in their subconscious they do believe in a greater Power.

Pure bull feces. I have ALWAYS considered Allah to be 100% fiction -- as fictional as Zeus or Marduk or Amon-Ra or Brahma or Quetzalcoatl.

emotional

River,

The Qur'an teaches a flat earth (PDF version).

كان محمد ابن كلب

River

Thanks.

Even though G-d doesnt need me, I need G-d at all times. G-d is Absolute. I am a relative Creature.....I cannot control my hunger, my bladder or anything for that matter...thus I can never , I am of no need of G-d. If I do say that, I have made myself a G-d beside Him. And I know I a not Immortal...so what gives me the right to say so?