Freethought & Rationalism Archive

03-15-2003, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rousseau_CHN
Anyway, rituals are meaningless since they favor form over substance. People who go to confession came out feeling all forgiven and ready to commit sins again.

...and what kind of atonement is praying three Our Fathers?

Isn't it nice to be a Catholic these days and get your guilt removed, your courage renewed and all for the price for three Our Fathers.

03-15-2003, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rousseau_CHN
People who go to confession came out feeling all forgiven and ready to commit sins again.

...and what kind of atonement is praying three Our Fathers?

Isn't it nice to be a Catholic these days and get your guilt removed, your courage renewed and all this for the price for three Our Fathers (that you can cheat on if you want to).

cunegund · 03-17-2003, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by the_cave
Cunegund (ahem...)

Confession isn't required of children until they reach the age of reason, at least--I myself received it around the age of 8 or so.

I still think that's awfully young. That�s just my opinion.

Quote:

I didn't go again until I was confirmed, at age 14. I suppose this wasn't strictly speaking proper, but I suspect it was the influence of my somewhat unorthodox parents at work...at any rate, chances are unless for some reason you choose to attend an ultra-traditionalist parish (it doesn't sound like you will...), there won't be a lot of pressure for your children to confess once receiving the sacrament (which they can receive when you feel like it, or when they feel like it, it's up to you. There might be some pressure to do so, but you're the parent. They can't kick you out of church just because you won't take your kids to confession!)

Ultra-traditional? Let me play a little devils advocate:

Catholic is supposed to mean Universal. One set of Rules for everyone to follow. It's supposed to be the beauty and foundation of the faith. The Church has the *authority* to teach. That's a big deal isn't it? That authority is supposed to be based on Jesus' passing the authority to Peter and his successors. Are you saying only the ultra-traditionalist believe this? If there is no authority behind the churches teachings, what good are any of them?

As Biff said...there are rules to Catholicism. Confession and Communion have rules. How do you disregard the rules so easily?

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They will need to receive it at least once in order to receive Communion. (For the record, my first Penance was a rather nice experience, actually. In fact, I don't remember any doom & gloom whatsoever.)

Also, unless someone commits a mortal sin (the list of which is subject to a great deal of opinion...),

The definition of mortal sin is subject to opinion? Whose opinion? This doesn't sound like Catholicism at all to me.

Secondly, isn't everyone a sinner? Or are you saying everyone is a minimum a "venial" sinner...not everyone is a mortal sinner...I'm not sure if that's what you mean, and if it is, what do you base that on?

Christianity says we're all sinners. The rules of the Catholic Church say that in order to receive communion, you must be free from mortal sin. If you die with a mortal sin, you're off to hell. etc..etc..

Considering these two rules, why don't you go to confession regularly? It would seem crazy not to. If confession is so good....why don't you go more often? As my original post asked...what "good" is found in confession..especially when imposed on your youngest members?

Quote:

they don't need to go at all! If you don't think it's likely one of your kids could commit one, it's unlikely anyone would require them to attend confession. I certainly wasn't required by anyone, and to my knowledge no one complained.

(By the way, the "box" is still around--face-to-face confession is entirely optional.)

Technically speaking, a Catholic is only required to attend confession once a year, during Lent. Of course, you're also not supposed to receive Communion if you haven't confessed a mortal sin (however, I must add that this teaching is, I dare say, frequently ignored.) In my experience, you won't find many Catholics, unless they are explicitly traditional, keeping an eye on either your or your children's sacramental habits. It's largely between you and your God, practically speaking.

Technically speaking? Why do you think this teaching is ignored? Why is not valid? It was valid where I was taught Catholicism. I don't think anyone keeps an eye on anyone, but it's a matter of your personal conscience and faith isn't it? If you know the rules and "ignore" them anyway...what does that say about your faith? I�ve never understood this stance from practicing Catholics. I must be missing something.

Seems the folks ignoring the rules are defining for themselves a different faith..cuz it sure doesn't seem like Catholicism...at least not to me.

And to re-state...I'm a former Catholic...I see certain parts of the faith as "immoral" and the cause of harm in the world. I'm still learning though and open to all perspectives.

The topic of "cafeteria" Catholics and liberal vs. traditional Catholics is a great discussion from my view. I'd love to explore it if anyone wanted to. This is a little off the topic, but in the context of confession, I think it has some relevance.

Hannah

cunegund · 03-17-2003, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
Then...maybe that's a good reason not to marry a Catholic...

Helen

It might be Helen. I haven't come to that point in my life yet.

I'm hopeful that "Religion" wouldn't prohibit me from marrying someone I love.

Not sure if that made sense

HelenM · 03-17-2003, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cunegund
It might be Helen. I haven't come to that point in my life yet.

I'm hopeful that "Religion" wouldn't prohibit me from marrying someone I love.

Not sure if that made sense

It did

- more than you might realize. I was dating someone years ago and became a Christian; he didn't but nevertheless we did get married.

If you're already in love with a Catholic that's one thing. But if you aren't then you do have control over whether you fall in love with one, imo. If you don't want to marry one, don't date them and don't spend a lot of time with them in ways which might lead you to get emotionally attached to one.

There are several people on this board who would strongly recomend not marrying someone who has different beliefs/nonbeliefs from you. If you read the Secular Lifestyle and Support board you will get an idea of the problems it can cause when one partner has different beliefs from the other.

Helen

cunegund · 03-17-2003, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
It did - more than you might realize. I was dating someone years ago and became a Christian; he didn't but nevertheless we did get married.

If you're already in love with a Catholic that's one thing. But if you aren't then you do have control over whether you fall in love with one, imo. If you don't want to marry one, don't date them and don't spend a lot of time with them in ways which might lead you to get emotionally attached to one.

There are several people on this board who would strongly recomend not marrying someone who has different beliefs/nonbeliefs from you. If you read the Secular Lifestyle and Support board you will get an idea of the problems it can cause when one partner has different beliefs from the other.

Helen

I meant exactly what you said

I have no control over who I fall in love with. It would stink if something like this became a obstacle that couldn't be worked out.

I'm still finding my way around here..I'll make a point to get over to the SLAS boards

Thanks

abe smith · 03-17-2003, 07:46 AM

Yeh, I know who "Cunegonde" is/was.
Please pardon my wet glove;. welcome new member & fellow-skeptic (I've got that right, ne?) >> but I presume to infer from the foregoing statement of yours ( that you "have no control over whom you fall in love with"), that you are uh, uh, somewhat less than say, 30 y.o.; and that you perhaps have not-yet too many love-scalps under your belt?

You have every right to take offense that I am pullling my age-rank.... (Oh is that what that is?) and/but sometimes as we-all get older ahem, we do learn certain defensive skills (let's call them that). To be sure, the older-cultures-than-ours faced up to the fact, FACT! that "love" is a messy form of insanity.

I presume further to offer that part of getting-older may include a painful learning that some sorts of "falling in love" cost more than they're worth. You don't have to accept this dour *opinion*. Glad you've found us, apart from all-that.
Grandpa

cunegund · 03-17-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith
Yeh, I know who "Cunegonde" is/was.

Candide is one of my favorite books

I think I saw a member on here with the Pangloss monkier...another fan I presume.

Quote:

Please pardon my wet glove;. welcome new member & fellow-skeptic (I've got that right, ne?) >> but I presume to infer from the foregoing statement of yours ( that you "have no control over whom you fall in love with"), that you are uh, uh, somewhat less than say, 30 y.o.;

You assumed correctly

Quote:

and that you perhaps have not-yet too many love-scalps under your belt?

I think I have just the right amount under my belt

Quote:

You have every right to take offense that I am pullling my age-rank.... (Oh is that what that is?) and/but sometimes as we-all get older ahem, we do learn certain defensive skills (let's call them that). To be sure, the older-cultures-than-ours faced up to the fact, FACT! that "love" is a messy form of insanity.

I presume further to offer that part of getting-older may include a painful learning that some sorts of "falling in love" cost more than they're worth. You don't have to accept this dour *opinion*. Glad you've found us, apart from all-that.
Grandpa

Love is complicated business and I'm gonna learn my lessons cautiously while trying to have fun.

I'm glad I've found this place too!

Hannah

Godless Dave · 03-17-2003, 08:13 AM

Cunegund, I don't want to tell you who to date or fall in love with, but if you do decide to only date the non-religious and if you are a woman (as I assume from your name) the odds are highly in your favor, as we non-religious men seem to outnumber non-religious women by a big margin.

Biff the unclean · 03-17-2003, 11:17 AM

And Cunegund you should keep in mind that you yourself have personal value.
When faced with Catholics, or most any flavor Xian for that matter, their priest consider your religious opinions completely valueless. They will insist that any children you have be raised in their belief system, and not in yours.

My married daughter was taking some classes at St John's U and was confronted with her having been raised as an Atheist by her Prof/priest in front of the class. He announced that anyone raised without God would grow up insane (cross my heart he actually had the balls to say that) My daughter (the twig has not fallen far from the tree) replied (also in front of the class) "I find that a highly insulting remark for an asexual man in a dress to make."

Because you marry a Catholic is no reason that your children have to be Catholic. Your religious opinions should have as much weight as those of your husbands.
My wife and I were married by a Judge in Hawaii next to a jungle waterfall. It was a beautiful ceremony. You don't need a church or any Gods to have a lovely wedding. Your children will not grow up insane if they aren't Theists. And you'll be able to live with yourself

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03-17-2003, 07:46 AM	#17
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Yeh, I know who "Cunegonde" is/was. Please pardon my wet glove;. welcome new member & fellow-skeptic (I've got that right, ne?) >> but I presume to infer from the foregoing statement of yours ( that you "have no control over whom you fall in love with"), that you are uh, uh, somewhat less than say, 30 y.o.; and that you perhaps have not-yet too many love-scalps under your belt? You have every right to take offense that I am pullling my age-rank.... (Oh is that what that is?) and/but sometimes as we-all get older ahem, we do learn certain defensive skills (let's call them that). To be sure, the older-cultures-than-ours faced up to the fact, FACT! that "love" is a messy form of insanity. I presume further to offer that part of getting-older may include a painful learning that some sorts of "falling in love" cost more than they're worth. You don't have to accept this dour opinion. Glad you've found us, apart from all-that. Grandpa

03-17-2003, 08:13 AM	#19
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Cunegund, I don't want to tell you who to date or fall in love with, but if you do decide to only date the non-religious and if you are a woman (as I assume from your name) the odds are highly in your favor, as we non-religious men seem to outnumber non-religious women by a big margin.

03-17-2003, 11:17 AM	#20
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	And Cunegund you should keep in mind that you yourself have personal value. When faced with Catholics, or most any flavor Xian for that matter, their priest consider your religious opinions completely valueless. They will insist that any children you have be raised in their belief system, and not in yours. My married daughter was taking some classes at St John's U and was confronted with her having been raised as an Atheist by her Prof/priest in front of the class. He announced that anyone raised without God would grow up insane (cross my heart he actually had the balls to say that) My daughter (the twig has not fallen far from the tree) replied (also in front of the class) "I find that a highly insulting remark for an asexual man in a dress to make." Because you marry a Catholic is no reason that your children have to be Catholic. Your religious opinions should have as much weight as those of your husbands. My wife and I were married by a Judge in Hawaii next to a jungle waterfall. It was a beautiful ceremony. You don't need a church or any Gods to have a lovely wedding. Your children will not grow up insane if they aren't Theists. And you'll be able to live with yourself

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