FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > IIDB ARCHIVE: 200X-2003, PD 2007 > IIDB Philosophical Forums (PRIOR TO JUN-2003)
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-21-2003, 04:50 PM   #11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lancaster, OH
Posts: 1,792
Default

I got this reply from a lawyer at Americans United http://au.org/

Thanks for getting in touch about Lancaster's observance of Good Friday.
You asked whether the City's actions in observance of the day is
constitutionally acceptable. The answer is somewhat complex.

Under Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 612-13 (1971), governmental action violates the Establishment Clause if it fails to have a secular purpose, itadvances or inhibits religion in its principal or primary effect, or it fosters an excessive entanglement between government and religion.


While the Supreme Court has not ruled on this specific issue, several federal circuit and district courts have. In general, these cases challenge laws that either designate Good Friday as a paid holiday for government employees or create a public school holiday.


Most courts have upheld such laws, finding that the government had a secular purpose in enacting them. See
Granzeier v. Middleton, 173 F.3d 568 (6th Cir. 1999)(court classified "Spring Holiday" on Good Friday as secular);

Koenick v. Felton, 190 F.3d 259, 266 (4th Cir. 1999) (statute providing for public school holiday on Good Friday constitutional because the holiday was "necessary due to the high rate of absenteeism expected");


Bridenbaugh v. O'Bannon, 185 F.3d 796, 799 (7th Cir. 1999) (state enunciated a secular purpose for recognition of
Good Friday as a legal holiday for state employees when it enacted holiday as a "Spring holiday . . . during a period of time in which there would be over four months without holidays");

Cammack v. Waihee, 932 F.2d 765 (9th Cir. 1991); Franks v. City of Niles, 1982 WL 460 (N.D. Ohio 1982).

When the government's intent in designating Good Friday as a holiday has been religious, courts have found that the statutes are unconstitutional. See Metzl v. Leininger, 57 F.3d 618, 620 (7th Cir. 1995) (holding that designating good Friday as a paid holiday for public school teachers was unconstitutional because the governor "made clear that the purpose of [the
holiday] was to encourage Christian religious observances"); Freedom FromReligion Foundation v. Thompson, 920 F. Supp. 969 (W.D. Wis. 1996).

Consequently, under the Lemon test, the constitutionality of
Lancaster's actions depend on its purpose in closing city offices and altering trash pick-up procedures. However, as is evident from the cases above, most
purposes espoused by state and local governments for Good Friday
closures (including purposes like the desire for an additional holiday, as a concession to labor unions in collective bargaining agreements, because people undertake secular vacation activities on the day, and avoiding widespread absenteeism) have been found constitutionally acceptable.

I hope that this information proves helpful. Thanks for your inquiry.


It looks like I'll just have to live with my city taking Good Friday off.
GaryP is offline  
Old 04-21-2003, 05:00 PM   #12
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Well, your opening post said "all City Offices will be closed in observance of Good Friday" as if the City itself were observing that Christian day, not that it was a Spring holiday or just a holiday. But if you filed a lawsuit, you might just force them to reword the notice. It might be worth writing a letter to the city attorney asking for a more secular announcement.

The LA Unified School District has been forced to close for Yom Kippur because they are unable to staff the classrooms. (A significant proportion of the substitute teachers are Jewish.) But they are always careful to label it something else.
Toto is offline  
Old 04-21-2003, 05:02 PM   #13
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lancaster, OH
Posts: 1,792
Default

Yeah-- Toto. I was beginning to think that myself.

I don't think the city attorney thinks too highly of me but it's worth a shot.
GaryP is offline  
Old 04-23-2003, 08:25 AM   #14
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,578
Default

In the state of Alabama, the counties around Mobile have an official state holiday on Fat Tuesday. Mobile actually has Mardi Gras celebrations, oldest in the country, etc. However, the rest of the state employees do not get Fat Tuesday off, but they do get a floating holiday that they can use whenever they choose. My friend who works for the state of AL, says that the legislators give out days off instead of raises.

I think that this would be acceptable for most: give people some floating holidays/extra paid personal leave instead of holidays on Good Friday, etc.

--tibac
wildernesse is offline  
Old 04-23-2003, 04:02 PM   #15
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tower of Ecthelion...by the Starbuck's
Posts: 1,815
Default

I don't think I'd mind the Good-Friday-as-paid-holiday thing, but I sure wouldn't want to be a secularist trash collector forced to work on Saturday and have my weekend chopped up so that my more superstition-riddled coworkers could go to church.

It frustrates me a bit tho that the Xn holidays are usually paid, pre-arranged affairs, while members of minority religions so often have to use their vacation time to get their holidays off. This doesn't affect me all that much; my family-visiting holidays match those typical for the culture at large because, duh, the whole family tends to automatically have them off. A "certain number of floating holidays with certain seasons when business tends to be light, so you don't have to wait until you have 40 years of seniority to get the most popular day off" system seems like the best possible compromise; who wouldn't say no to a vacation package twice as long? Some people could take Xmas (one of the "likely to be light" days), some could take the Jewish holidays, some could take the Pagan ones and so on....and some could take a month off at some oddball time of year and go to the islands. Not likely to happen tho.
4th Generation Atheist is offline  
Old 04-24-2003, 02:44 AM   #16
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,479
Unhappy

In germany, it's even worse. In most states (I think in all of them, but I don't have references handy), you aren't allowed to dance or play in public places, because some Yeshuah who did or didn't exist died (or didn't) on that day! I don't understand that, since nonreligious and muslim people are very numerous here. Why should they observe a religion they don't belong to?

Enai
Enai is offline  
Old 04-24-2003, 02:57 AM   #17
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lancaster, OH
Posts: 1,792
Default

Hi, Enai.

Is that law actually enforced?
GaryP is offline  
Old 04-24-2003, 04:32 AM   #18
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,107
Default

Enai,
Where are you living in Germany? I was married in Berlin in 1955 where a civil ceremony was required as well as any church ceremony to make the marriage legal.

Edited to add:
I found Southern Germany to be religiously conservative. It was not unusual to see a crucifix over the the bar in bistros.
Oresta is offline  
Old 04-24-2003, 05:21 AM   #19
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 7,834
Default

I'm currently living in Germany as well (Hamburg), and was a bit dismayed by how the town pretty much shuts down for the four days (fri-mon).
Me, and my American collegues working here worked right on through, only taking sunday off (damn schedules...). But there was almost no one here that wasn't required for security reasons.
Nobody here seems to care what religion you are, they have thier holidays, and that's that!
On the other hand, it seems (from the large number of inebriated natives on the trains/busses in the morning on the way to the office) that it is really just an excuse to have an extended party.

Not that I mind, but if you need to go shopping, forget it.
Worldtraveller is offline  
Old 04-26-2003, 03:48 AM   #20
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,479
Default

Quote:
GaryP wrote:
Is that law actually enforced?
Yes. Bars and discos you go to on good friday close their dancing spaces and play shitty music. I sincerely doubt this is done out of their own free decision, seeing that these places thrive on dancing and jollies.

Quote:
Oresta wrote:
Enai, Where are you living in Germany?
I was married in Berlin in 1955 where a civil ceremony was required as well as any church ceremony to make the marriage legal.
I live in Hannover.
It now isn't required to have a church ceremony to be legally married and hasn't been so for at least 30 years. My parents were married in 1969 by a Standesbeamter (I think it is an equivalent postition to justice of the peace in USA, but I don't know much about your system). In fact, I'm a bit puzzled about your experience. I thought secular marriage had long before been possible, at least from the 1920's on. In fact, I think what gives your marriage legal standing in german courts is the civil ceremony, provided you have been married in germany. If you haven't of course the marriage certificate(? you get what I mean, I hope) will do just fine.

Quote:
I found Southern Germany to be religiously conservative. It was not unusual to see a crucifix over the the bar in bistros.
That's true. Bavaria is the most conservative part of germany. I'm told that even here some religious discrimination takes place (for instance in the form of teachers who say that all pupils must attend a service at the end of the schoolyear, while in fact it is purely elective. The school just has the problem to properly supervise the minor children, and so they try to force them into one room, parental objections be damned).

Quote:
Worltraveler wrote:
Nobody here seems to care what religion you are, they have thier holidays, and that's that!
On the other hand, it seems (from the large number of inebriated natives on the trains/busses in the morning on the way to the office) that it is really just an excuse to have an extended party.
I think you hit the nail straight on the head. I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy it because of your work. In fact, working on sundays and public holidays is forbidden by law in germany, unless you have special reasons and a permit. So if you resent your lost holiday, sue your company! Just kidding

Okay, this weekend is waiting! I'm off to fun.
Enai
Enai is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:35 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.