Freethought & Rationalism Archive

philechat · 06-16-2002, 12:18 PM

Seebs:

Then what is the Christian definition of humility? I don't know if we had established any common ground on its meanings, so may you give me a precise definition of humility in Christian dictionary (ahhh...all words could be re-defined for ideological purpose, isn't it?)

I would say that all adjectives we use imply some sort of value judgment, and it is impossible for us to avoid value judgments when we try to use adjectives. The term "unequal" I used here is rather that there are no valuations that are supposedly "equal". It refers to the impossibility of equating apples to oranges, though one may, in his/her own value system, consider oranges to be a tastier fruit than apples.

Therefore, the term "all men are created equal" is forcing a sort of artificial unity upon completely uncomparable and diverse people. It is a meaningless construct and does not add to one's understandings of people.

And the term "humility", likewise, is a judgmental and affirmative term like other adjectives, in that it is not devoid of value assertion (i.e. it is not a good-in-itself, but good only according to a certain perspective/value system)

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]

katellagen · 06-16-2002, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Humility affirms nothing--it seeks to debase one's choice in the eyes of others so that one can avoid conflict with the other. Humility in leaders is a pragmatic tool : For leaders want followers to listen to him, and to have the followers agree with him, leaders "pretend to" listen to the advice of the followers without actually believing him/herself the same level as the followers.

This is FALSE humility. To condemn humility on the basis of a counterfeit of it would be like saying science is useless because people practice Christian Science - which, in truth is neither.

Peace

ex-preacher · 06-16-2002, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:

Like Celsus who proclaimed "I know all", I see many supposed skeptics posting here who seem to think their knowledge has no limits. That is to say, they seem to think that their understanding is capable of pentrating the deepest mysteries of the universe. If they can't understand God, well then it's clear that he doesn't exist. In their arrogance they believe that if they cannot fully comprehend something with their minds then it is absurd and illogical. Hume expresses perfectly my complaint about such people in his Dialogues on Natural Religion

[snip long quote from Hume, one of my heroes!]

I see many posters here who think their intellect sufficient to discern even the depths of God, and finding they cannot then conclude that he does not exist. Calling themselves skeptics and freethinkers, they themselves lack skepticism as to the ability of their thinking and believe themselves capable of intellectual discernment beyond that of all humans. And so it seems to me their true arrogance is shown.

Specific examples, please. Please identify these "supposed skeptics" and "many posters." Give us the links and the quotes and we'll judge. Your abstract allegations need to be substantiated.

This type of arrogance might also be displayed by Christians who claim to understand certain things due to their special revelation or gift of the spirit or personal encounter with the divine mystery.

philechat · 06-16-2002, 12:41 PM

Katellagen

Quote:

This is FALSE humility. To condemn humility on the basis of a counterfeit of it would be like saying science is useless because people practice Christian Science - which, in truth is neither.

I was just demonstrating the impossibility of humility in leaders. Leader as a role is an assertion of superiority over the followers, and therefore not "humble", no matter how "humble" a leader appears to be in front of his/her followers.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]

katellagen · 06-16-2002, 10:15 PM

Philechat,

Quote:

I was just demonstrating the impossibility of humility in leaders. Leader as a role is an assertion of superiority over the followers, and therefore not "humble", no matter how "humble" the leaders appear to be in front of his/her followers.

Thanks for the clarification. Now I think I understand what you meant. But I can't say I'm any more in agreement.

It seems then that you would be affirming leadership as an assertion of one's superiority over others, over against the less or undesirable trait of humility which you view as being incompatible with it.

Would this be a purely subjective valuation, or one that all should hold and therefore pursue? (i.e., leadership is better than humility, therefore spurn humility and assert yourself over others.) IOW, is there a place for structure and order in society, or should it all be a massive power grab? If on the other hand, what's good for the goose is not what's good for the gander (don't ask me why I put it that way. It's late.) then isn't the humility which keeps the "followers" happily in there place a necessary thing for a peaceful society, and therefore valued by all?

If the leader truly values the assertion of their superiority over others, how can he have anything but some degree of contempt for the poor weak doormats who value humility?

If asserting ones superiority over others is the prefered position, must the leader resort to the false humility you refered to before in order to gain or keep the trust of the followers? If so, is a position that requires deceit really superior?

If it is not necessary to deceive with false humility and duplicity, and true humility is incompatible with your position, and you really believe it is preferable to assert your supremacy, in what direction can you logically move other than toward authoritarianism/fascism/dictatorship - even if it's a "benevolent" one.

I'm serious here. I'm trying to understand your position. But with your definitions of humility and leadership, and their mutually exclusive nature, I don't know how else to make sense of it. Am I way off base? Why?

Of course I understand both the quality of humility, and the role of leadership quite differently. And I see no incompatibility between them. But it's too late to get into that now.

Peace

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: katellagen ]

Arrowman · 06-17-2002, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
...I see many supposed skeptics posting here who seem to think their knowledge has no limits. That is to say, they seem to think that their understanding is capable of pentrating the deepest mysteries of the universe. If they can't understand God, well then it's clear that he doesn't exist. In their arrogance they believe that if they cannot fully comprehend something with their minds then it is absurd and illogical.

This is, like the "why do you hate God?" question, a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding of the atheist position. You are attempting to describe the position of someone who does not believe in God, based in part on the assumption that God exists.

I think I speak for most atheists when I say that I do not claim to have "penetrated the deepest mysteries of the universe" - and I do not disbelieve in God because I "do not understand Him".

I simply assert that there is no evidence for the existence of any God which has any direct influence on human life on this planet. In particular, there is no evidence for the God described in the Bible. It does not take an 'understanding of the deepest mysteries of the universe' to come to that conclusion.

06-17-2002, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Tercel:

Quote:

If they can't understand God, well then it's clear that he doesn't exist.
...
I see many posters here who think their intellect sufficient to discern even the depths of God, and finding they cannot then conclude that he does not exist

You are imputing thoughts to atheists that few would agree to entertaining. I would maintain that gods (please note the plural) are all too easy to understand in terms of human efforts to make sense of things and to feel comforted and special in a fairly hostile world.

In the end, it comes back to the old argument: we are all atheists with regard to most gods. Those who call themselves "atheists" are just disbeleiving with respect to your god too.

What needs to be understood about gods is why humans believe in them.

hezekiah jones · 06-17-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
... I see many posters here who think their intellect sufficient to discern even the depths of God, and finding they cannot then conclude that he does not exist.

So ... these posters consider their intellects sufficient to discern "even the depths of God" (whatever that means ...) but at the same time find they cannot discern even the depths of God. That makes a lot of sense.

"God is out there, trust me. You're just too 'arrogant' to realize it." Very convincing!

Quote:

My intellect is sufficient to discern the depths of God!
I cannot discern the depths of God!
Therefore God does not exist!
(Fuck me - neither does my intellect!)

So can they or can't they?

Maybe they can "discern even the depths of God," but they're missing, or else have yet to discover, some ineffable quality such as the theist possesses? Where is it? In our Heart? Spleen? Pineal Gland?

Perhaps they are on the lookout for evidence, and, finding none, tentatively conclude ... er ... that's there's no evidence and no reason to fabricate any?

And you call this arrogance?

Quote:

Calling themselves skeptics and freethinkers, they themselves lack skepticism as to the ability of their thinking and believe themselves capable of intellectual discernment beyond that of all humans.

Who the hell are you talking about? Is he made of straw by any chance?

Quote:

And so it seems to me their true arrogance is shown.

Uh huh. Well, discern away.

Laera · 06-17-2002, 12:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by katellagen:
Christians too admit there is much we don't know. In fact, we would say that there is much that we would have absolutely no chance of knowing apart from Special Revelation. Further, we would assert that ultimately all of our knowledge is dependant upon the grace of God.

On the other hand, atheists believe that all that we know, we know because our superior intellects and brilliant methodologies in themselves are sufficient to attain such knowledge.[quote]

I agree that Christians attempt to be humble in their attributing all knowledge to "gifts from God," but seen from the other side, why are Christians so special as to be granted those "special revelations?"

Also, how is it that atheists come by their knowledge - they're obviously not as special as Christians in god's eyes, but why does he grant so many of them the "gift" of being able to figure out how things work? (especially considering such a high percentage of highly-educated are non-believers)

It seems to me that attributing something (knowledge) that is equally distributed across religious lines to your god giving you a "gift" doesn't make much sense.

Quote:

Again, for the Christian any knowledge of ultimate meanings is not self-attained but God-given. How can this be labled arrogant?

This would be arrogant because Christians claim to be special enough to the Almighty Creator of the Universe(tm) that he would bestow such knowledge upon you - but not "allow" the atheist to understand using his supposed "god-given" gift of reason as a source of knowledge. (or is the *only* source of knowledge "special revelation" in which case god must have told you that 2+2=4)

Why would god give us reason if not to use it? Wouldn't it be arrogant to ignore your "gift" of rationallity (a much more reliable gift than waiting for "revelation") and claim to know the "ultimate meaning God revealed" to one of thousands of groups that claim to be the "true faith?" Why are Christians so much better than the rest of the world that's got it wrong? Why does god supposedly favor those who don't use the minds he gave them?

Quote:

But the atheist would also add that humans have demonstrated their vast superiority over all other known species through the evolutionary process by which they have been shown to be most fit to rule and dominate, and thus have gained supremacy and have collectively become the king of the world, and each, the master of his destiny.

Where Christians would add that humans were GIVEN vast superiority over all other known species thorough the process of creation by which they have been granted the ability to rule and dominate, and thus have gained supremacy and have collectively become the king of the world, and each reliant on an invisible being to help them find their toothbrushes in the morning.

So the question becomes, is it more arrogant to think we're the highest notch in the food chain because of an evolutionary process we had no concious effect on (lucky us), or because we're just THAT special to the creator of everything.

At least atheists can acknowledge the insignificant beings that we are (in relation to the entire universe) - where Christians claim to be "chosen" and the rest of the universe is there as their play-thing (though, of course, they have to wait for god to "reveal" space-travel to them so they can actually access the other 99.9999999999999999% of god's gift to them - not to mention gills so they can explore the closer 70% of the earth they live on.)

Quote:

This is all the work of someone other than ourselves.

the Christian would also add that even given such benefits and privilege, we have failed to fulfill our highest calling of truly and consistantly reflecting the glory of the One whose image we bear, bringing shame on ourselves because of and by our failure. And yet, being the objects of the love of the Creator, we have been redeemed and sustained in spite of - NOT because of ourselves. How is this arrogant?

So an inability to take credit for your accomplishments does seem to make you humble. However, the basis for this humility is declaring yourselves uniquely loved by god and therefore capable of perfection in the first place. Atheist skip that step and just realize that there is no "perfection" - only continual improvement. Both sides admit weaknesses in their current position and both aspire to improve (socially, personally, intellectually, etc.). It's just that the Christians decided that a 2000 year old book could tell them what the ultimate goal is. Atheists think the possibilities are boundless. Christians ignore knowledge that doesn't support their current world-view in order to remain "good sheep", while atheists incorporate every new bit of data into their understanding in their effort to find the truth of the world around them.

Quote:

I think we might do better to ask: "which view is more consistant with an attitude of arrogance?", and to realize that the attitude and display of arrogance is really an individual matter. As I view it, and like others have said there is no shortage of arrogance on either side. I think it's better to think of a position as being right or wrong, and to deal with people with respect. This tends to keep the display of arrogance at a minimum.

Maybe the agnostic view then is best (it's what most people wind up in anyway): "I don't know and you don't either." The only thing is that Atheists go on to say "but maybe we'll figure it out some day" while Christians tend to say "but God will let us know if he decides we should - which he probably will because he loves us."

If, after years of research and scientific inquiry, we do find out something we don't know today, should we give thanks to god for the "revelation" or maybe could we thank the generations of scientists who devoted their lives to the pursuit of that knowledge? (Some xians would say we should give thanks to god for the scientists - it's such circular (and IMO slimy) logic)

Pseudonymph · 06-17-2002, 01:29 PM

This whole topic fascinates me. In fact, it's part of the reason I registered here in the first place. Many of my encounters with atheists have been negative for the one reason that so many have been very condescending and rude when I say that while I don't believe in "god"(TM) I do believe that there is a higher power than us.

They ask me how I could be so childish and naive, believing fairy tales etc. It really bothers me.

Not here though...most people here have helped me quite a bit through some things and have given great advice.

I speak mainly of real life encounters. I don't know...I guess my belief is irrational...but I feel it. Sometimes I just get this sense of peace and well-being, even in the midst of trying times. I can't explain it. I know I didn't do anything to cause it. I just feel it.

Sure, a lot of christians are arrogant, well screw em I say. I don't deal with arrogant people if I can at all avoid it, but again, the majority of these types of negative experiences have been(for me)with atheists. I don't know why.

I was once told by this one guy when I said that I believed in god, that he wouldnt think any less of me, even though I was naive and foolish. Rinse and repeat, almost my whole life, dealing with atheists.

I'm not a biblical scholar, a christian or a jew, or an atheist...I have a belief in something I cannot explain, a feeling, a trust.

As dumb as that may sound to you or anyone else, I can't change it or run from it, I've already tried.

I'm not claiming to know god, or how we got here or things about heaven, hell etc...Again all I'm telling you is how I feel...

Sorry for kind of intruding on this topic, just had to get that off my chest.

06-16-2002, 12:18 PM	#31
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	Seebs: Then what is the Christian definition of humility? I don't know if we had established any common ground on its meanings, so may you give me a precise definition of humility in Christian dictionary (ahhh...all words could be re-defined for ideological purpose, isn't it?) I would say that all adjectives we use imply some sort of value judgment, and it is impossible for us to avoid value judgments when we try to use adjectives. The term "unequal" I used here is rather that there are no valuations that are supposedly "equal". It refers to the impossibility of equating apples to oranges, though one may, in his/her own value system, consider oranges to be a tastier fruit than apples. Therefore, the term "all men are created equal" is forcing a sort of artificial unity upon completely uncomparable and diverse people. It is a meaningless construct and does not add to one's understandings of people. And the term "humility", likewise, is a judgmental and affirmative term like other adjectives, in that it is not devoid of value assertion (i.e. it is not a good-in-itself, but good only according to a certain perspective/value system) [ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

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06-17-2002, 01:29 PM	#40
Pseudonymph Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 813	This whole topic fascinates me. In fact, it's part of the reason I registered here in the first place. Many of my encounters with atheists have been negative for the one reason that so many have been very condescending and rude when I say that while I don't believe in "god"(TM) I do believe that there is a higher power than us. They ask me how I could be so childish and naive, believing fairy tales etc. It really bothers me. Not here though...most people here have helped me quite a bit through some things and have given great advice. I speak mainly of real life encounters. I don't know...I guess my belief is irrational...but I feel it. Sometimes I just get this sense of peace and well-being, even in the midst of trying times. I can't explain it. I know I didn't do anything to cause it. I just feel it. Sure, a lot of christians are arrogant, well screw em I say. I don't deal with arrogant people if I can at all avoid it, but again, the majority of these types of negative experiences have been(for me)with atheists. I don't know why. I was once told by this one guy when I said that I believed in god, that he wouldnt think any less of me, even though I was naive and foolish. Rinse and repeat, almost my whole life, dealing with atheists. I'm not a biblical scholar, a christian or a jew, or an atheist...I have a belief in something I cannot explain, a feeling, a trust. As dumb as that may sound to you or anyone else, I can't change it or run from it, I've already tried. I'm not claiming to know god, or how we got here or things about heaven, hell etc...Again all I'm telling you is how I feel... Sorry for kind of intruding on this topic, just had to get that off my chest.

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