August Spies

is this a joke?

uh... well assumign there is a god and assuming he declared something a human right it would automatically BE a human right PUERLY on the basis of his all-powerful will. I fail to see the problem you are having here. The basis is his will.

Wiploc

August Spies:
> > > well if some god did come down and say
> > > "hey! you guys! these are human rights"
> > > Then we could agree on what they are.


crc:
> > We could agree if we did agree, but what
> > if we didn't? How does a god coming down
> > and saying, "These are your rights," work
> > any better than my friend Ralph coming
> > across town and saying, "These are your rights"?

August Spies:
> is this a joke?

crc:
No. It is the core issue. You will find it is
a complete refutation of every Christian
moral argument. If a god said rape was
good, would that make rape good?

If it doesn't make rape good, then morality
is not the kind of thing that can be dictated
from one person to another, even if one of
the people is a god.

If somebody thinks gods can make rape
good, then they have the power-worshipping
I'm-just-following-orders kind of morality that
would be useful to guards at an extermination
camp.

> > With higher consciousness, what is the basis
> > of human rights? I don't see any way that
> > higher consciousness can help.

> uh... well assumign there is a god and assuming
> he declared something a human right it would
> automatically BE a human right PUERLY on the
> basis of his all-powerful will. I fail to see the
> problem you are having here. The basis is his will.

What does god's will have to do with what's right?
Suppose god wills that I always present my
left profile to the camera. And suppose I prefer
the right. Is there any reason that I should
do it god's way rather than my own? No. No one
has ever offered such a reason.

And yet morality and rights have to do with how
one ought to behave. If god's will cannot
produce an ought, then he cannot create rights.

One could obey a god out of fear of punishment, as
one might obey a policeman or a kidnapper. But this
doesn't amount to a moral ought.

One could obey a god out of respect and trust for
the god's superior knowledge and character, as
one might be inspired by Mother Teresa or Underdog.
It might be argued that this is a moral ought, but
the oughtiness is not based on somebody's will. If
Mother Teresa and Underdog willed you to commit
rapes, the rapes would still be wrong.

crc

August Spies

Yes. God can make anything morally true or false. (look I dont 'believe in god, but if one DID exist it would cleary be HIM that dictated morality)

OH come of it. If a fucking God came down from the sky and told you something you woudl believe it instantly.

Yes, the reason would be that its against god's will. Your argument makes no sense.

OF COURSE A GOD COULD CREATE MORAL OUGHTS!!!!!!!!!

August Spies

"If
Mother Teresa and Underdog willed you to commit
rapes, the rapes would still be wrong. "

buddy last time I checked underdog was not an all-powerful, all-knowing being that created all existance. Look this is getting to far off-topic, if you want to argue about what morals a god could create we should do a new thread.

Wiploc

The new thread is up. The title is "God-made rights."
crc

Harumi

Wow. I think this thread has gone way out. And it's dying. So I guess I'll make a conclusion.

Objectively, there can be no 'natural human rights'. That is a dillusion that humans like to hold, believing themselves to be better than everyone else.

Human rights comes as part of the agreement that these 'rights' would protect one another and ensure a healthy, well functioning society.

Sounds good to me. Over and out.