Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 04-06-2003, 02:57 PM

The OP consists of one gigantic strawman. Atheism is not a belief that no gods exist, it is a lack of belief that any gods exist. The author of the chapter in the OP is confusing atheism with strong atheism (a mistake commonly made by xians).

Also, the author of the chapter in the OP has no idea what faith is. The terms "faith" and "trust" are not interchangable. Faith is a belief that is either not supported by evidence or runs contrary to available evidence. Therefore all of the arguments that the author in the OP makes with regards to faith are all fallacious.

Sincerely,

Goliath

(edited to add a comma)

Mick911 · 04-06-2003, 03:31 PM

There isn't any evidence to suggest that an onnipresent entity doesn't exist, either. So much for rational thinking.

Also, what is an "xian"? is this slang meaning 'fill in the appropiate religion' in place of "x"?

Thanks

Mick911 · 04-06-2003, 03:38 PM

astrology: I believe in the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff lol

Thanks, Mageth for the interesting and enlightening debate (can I use the word enlightening in an athiest forum? lol)

so, when do I become a veteran user?

Mageth · 04-06-2003, 03:40 PM

There isn't any evidence to suggest that an onnipresent entity doesn't exist, either. So much for rational thinking.

And I, and most other atheists, don't claim that there is any "evidence" that an omnipresent entity doesn't exist. So much for rational reading, I guess.

For someone that makes a big deal out of others' "assumptions" about you, I guess you're not too adverse to making similar assumptions.

Also, what is an "xian"? is this slang meaning 'fill in the appropiate religion' in place of "x"?

"x" is an ancient christian shorthand for "Christ". Ever heard of "Xmas"? Fill in the rest yourself.

Mageth · 04-06-2003, 03:43 PM

astrology: I believe in the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff lol

Yup, that a nice description of many weird beliefs people hold. Goes right along with remembering the hits and ignoring the misses.

Mick911 · 04-06-2003, 03:59 PM

um, I'm being sarcastic about astrology.

I've tried to learn alot about various philisophical ideas. That's what I'm trying to do now - I'm throwing out my feelings and personal beliefs about these things so people will debate them and help me to consider things from a different perspective. I think that the best way to view something is "outside in the midst of it" instead of "through the window" so to speak.
I just feel too "spiritual(?)" to dismiss things just because there is no explanation for their existance. But that doesn't mean I'm not skeptical or don't want real answers. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested in learning more. Life is an endless quest for knowledge and (I think) we will die before all the answers present themselves, anyway.

Goliath · 04-06-2003, 06:32 PM

Mick911,

Quote:

There isn't any evidence to suggest that an onnipresent entity doesn't exist, either.

There are atheists who would contest this, but this tangent of evidence is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread. Since I have never made the claim that no gods exist, and will probably never make the claim that no gods exist, I need care nothing for evidence pointing towards the nonexistence of any god of any kind whatsoever. Understand?

Quote:

Also, what is an "xian"? is this slang meaning 'fill in the appropiate religion' in place of "x"?

No. Xian is an abbreviation for christian in the same way that xmas is an abbreviation for christmas. It is a completely legtimiate abbreviation. If memory recalls, the "x" in "xian" (or "xmas," for that matter) has to do with how Christ is spelled in Greek.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Amaranth · 04-06-2003, 07:31 PM

This has probably been said before. Regardless....

Quote:

From OP:
To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

By the same token:

To say categorically, "There is no leprechaun," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no leprechaun in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

I'd like to thank the author for demonstrating why science leaves the burden of truth on he who makes the claim of existance.

Shake · 04-07-2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Well there is plenty of evidence, its just not the kind you want. You rely on faith for everything else you do and take in life. You weren't there during Roman or Greek or Nepoleans days so you take faith the the historical books written by eyewitness accounts or of the person themselves to be factual. Same with religion.

How do you know who discovered America? Columbus because everyone told you he did? How do you know Julius Ceasar ruled Rome? Because people of the time wrote down what he did? Everything we do is based on faith. Christians faith is just more in depth.

Allow me to take something from the o.p.:

Quote:

God is not subject to the dimension of time. He dwells in eternity. The Bible tells us that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to us (see Psalm 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8). You can prove this for yourself by studying the prophecies of the Bible mentioned in a later chapter. God can flick through time as you and I flick through the pages of a history book. If you find this hard to believe, even when confronted with the evidence of biblical prophecies, you will find it to be true one day. The Scriptures tell us that God will eventually withdraw time, and we will then dwell in eternity.
(bold added for emphasis)

How do you know about this above quote? Because of what someone wrote down? How does he know? If I cannot believe what other historians have written, how can I believe what Peter wrote? Or Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John for that matter? "Scripture tells" you this. I know you'll probably counter with the old "divinely inspired" argument for the writings of the Scriptures, but who's to say these folks didn't all collaborate on some massive fiction work and collectively spread the rumor that these texts were "inspired by God" and people should follow them. You would probably discount Dianetics. Who are you to say that God didn't indeed speak to L. Ron Hubbard or inspire him to write his text?

Yikes! There's SO much wrong with the o.p., but others, like diana on page 1 of this thread, have done much better than I could, so I don't feel I need to weigh in on this anymore for now.

Quote:

And i will never be agnostic/atheist because i didn't know God when i was younger and it was a miserable existance. Once i found God - i felt like i was in a different world.

Well, I'm glad you're not miserable anymore.

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04-06-2003, 02:57 PM	#211
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	The OP consists of one gigantic strawman. Atheism is not a belief that no gods exist, it is a *lack of belief* that any gods exist. The author of the chapter in the OP is confusing atheism with strong atheism (a mistake commonly made by xians). Also, the author of the chapter in the OP has no idea what faith is. The terms "faith" and "trust" are not interchangable. Faith is a belief that is either not supported by evidence or runs contrary to available evidence. Therefore all of the arguments that the author in the OP makes with regards to faith are all fallacious. Sincerely, Goliath (edited to add a comma)

04-06-2003, 03:31 PM	#212
Mick911 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: in the middle Posts: 15	There isn't any evidence to suggest that an onnipresent entity doesn't exist, either. So much for rational thinking. Also, what is an "xian"? is this slang meaning 'fill in the appropiate religion' in place of "x"? Thanks

04-06-2003, 03:38 PM	#213
Mick911 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: in the middle Posts: 15	astrology: I believe in the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff lol Thanks, Mageth for the interesting and enlightening debate (can I use the word enlightening in an athiest forum? lol) so, when do I become a veteran user?

04-06-2003, 03:40 PM	#214
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	There isn't any evidence to suggest that an onnipresent entity doesn't exist, either. So much for rational thinking. And I, and most other atheists, don't claim that there is any "evidence" that an omnipresent entity doesn't exist. So much for rational reading, I guess. For someone that makes a big deal out of others' "assumptions" about you, I guess you're not too adverse to making similar assumptions. Also, what is an "xian"? is this slang meaning 'fill in the appropiate religion' in place of "x"? "x" is an ancient christian shorthand for "Christ". Ever heard of "Xmas"? Fill in the rest yourself.

04-06-2003, 03:43 PM	#215
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	astrology: I believe in the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff lol Yup, that a nice description of many weird beliefs people hold. Goes right along with remembering the hits and ignoring the misses.

04-06-2003, 03:59 PM	#216
Mick911 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: in the middle Posts: 15	um, I'm being sarcastic about astrology. I've tried to learn alot about various philisophical ideas. That's what I'm trying to do now - I'm throwing out my feelings and personal beliefs about these things so people will debate them and help me to consider things from a different perspective. I think that the best way to view something is "outside in the midst of it" instead of "through the window" so to speak. I just feel too "spiritual(?)" to dismiss things just because there is no explanation for their existance. But that doesn't mean I'm not skeptical or don't want real answers. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested in learning more. Life is an endless quest for knowledge and (I think) we will die before all the answers present themselves, anyway.

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