Freethought & Rationalism Archive

winstonjen · 03-18-2003, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus
Seriously (please), sin is not a "thing," it is a condition. Specifically, it is "falling short" of perfect obedience to God's law. So, God neither created it, nor is he responsible for it.

By creating the standards by which something would be considered 'sin', he created sin at the same time.

Appius · 03-18-2003, 12:42 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by winstonjen
[B]God is ultimately responsible for sin. By defining what he considered to be sin, he created it, and tempted us to 'sin' by creating it. Therefore it is his fault, and he should be burning in hell for all of his sin.

Perhaps you mean that since he gave Adam and Eve a command implies that there is an action which is not obeying, thus creating sin along with good? If so we were still tempted, thus certainly having a choice in the matter.

EggplantTrent · 03-18-2003, 01:10 AM

Quote:

What makes you think that any of that is moral?
It is in fact your assertion that you are a "good" person that is the greates affront to God who has declared you a sinner.

Besides, it is the height of ingratitude (and the essence of sin) not to acknowledge Him on whom your very existence depends. You assume that your life depends on natural forces; the fact that you can identify How natural forces may work says nothing about Why they work.

Likewise, it is also your assertion (founded on a contradictory compilation of books) that the bible and God is true and that christian morality is the only morality. You conclude that I am an affront to God and that I am a sinner in denial through the bible (which is supposedly god's word) am I correct?

What validates the bible? What makes you think the bible is true? God makes the bible true.

God --> Bible --> God --> bible ad infinitum...

Why should I believe in your God construct? Your God is circular. Why is that? What proof is there that your santa god is making a list and checking it twice? If your God is so powerful and deems me an affront to his existence and an ingrate, why did he not smite me as soon as I made the last post?

Why doesn't he show himself to me or make sense to me? Why doesn't he make me understand? He is a being with infinite power. Ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find etc etc. Does he not love me?

Catholic priests that sodomize altar boys. Is that moral? Christians that go to church on sunday and then go back home and beat their wives and kids, is that moral? Christians that hate gays and blacks and jews, do they posses a morality more highly refined than mines? Siddhartha Gautama, mahatma ghandi, the dalai lama, they are great affronts to God because they aren't christians?

What about neanderthal man, and australopethicine man? There was no bible back then, so they're all burning in hell? Or did jesus come to them too? Space aliens? In such a vast universe, there could be many many planets populated with sentient beings. Did Jesus go to them too? If not, then why? Why would God give only humans a chance to go to heaven and be "moral" yet not allow klingons and wookies the same oppurtunities?

Quote:

Quoted from Appius:

Perhaps you mean that since he gave Adam and Eve a command implies that there is an action which is not obeying, thus creating sin along with good? If so we were still tempted, thus certainly having a choice in the matter.

Do you believe in an omnipotent and omiscient god?

winstonjen · 03-18-2003, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Appius

Perhaps you mean that since he gave Adam and Eve a command implies that there is an action which is not obeying, thus creating sin along with good? If so we were still tempted, thus certainly having a choice in the matter.

There wouldn't be 'sin', according to you, if your god let everyone do anything they wanted to without getting pissed at them and sending them to hell, we wouldn't have 'sin' or eternal damnation (according to you) to worry about. I don't mind having laws against actions that hurt other people, such as rape, murder, etc. It's the victimless 'sins' that your god declares as 'wrong' that gets me mad.

And how were Adam and Eve even supposed to know that god was good? They were created with total innocence and no knowledge of good or evil.

HaysooChreesto! · 03-18-2003, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus
Great. You can tell him that when you see him.

Seriously (please), sin is not a "thing," it is a condition. Specifically, it is "falling short" of perfect obedience to God's law. So, God neither created it, nor is he responsible for it.

This is one the things that bothers me the most about Xtianity. This "falling short of the glory of God" is such an immoral setup. We have to fail, we have to feel guilty in front of God. It's so much manipulative fear mongering. We can be punished forever for being what we are which is human. Sure we can confess our sins to God, but He already knows about them anyway and he knows that come Friday night we're going to do them again. But live in guilt and fear all our lives we must for the filthy "Glory of God".
It is so vile.

If sin were a condition then the second you thought something impure, which we all do at some point every single day then even the strictest Xtian would be a constant sinner. Who would want to worship a giant thought cop?
How jacked up is it that one must always think of themselves as an amoral insect? "I am nothing before you". WAKE UP!
If your god created all, then that "all" includes evil and sin. Any other interpretation is a pathetic self delusion.

Under these conditions, if there is a god like Xtians claim there to be, then I want to work for the Other Guy.

HaysooChreesto! · 03-18-2003, 10:16 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Appius
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen

Perhaps you mean that since he gave Adam and Eve a command implies that there is an action which is not obeying, thus creating sin along with good? If so we were still tempted, thus certainly having a choice in the matter.

Wrong! I wasn't there in the Garden. I didn't make that choice. I didn't ask to be born.
Why am I engaging in this? I almost never do.

One more time; I didn't spin straw into gold, I didn't take the peasent girls baby, and I didn't make her guess my name-which is Rumplestiltskin BTW.

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Why doesn't he show himself to me or make sense to me? Why doesn't he make me understand? He is a being with infinite power. Ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find etc etc. Does he not love me?

Of course he does, but atheists are so bent on disproving God and denying him, that you hardened your heart to God. He knows that you will never unharden it so he lets it get more hardened. Just like what happened the pharoah. God is not to be tested. He gave you the Bible and the world around you, if you don't accept his evidence as enough or even open your mind to him being real, then you're outta luck.

Quote:

What about neanderthal man, and australopethicine man? There was no bible back then, so they're all burning in hell? Or did jesus come to them too? Space aliens? In such a vast universe, there could be many many planets populated with sentient beings. Did Jesus go to them too? If not, then why? Why would God give only humans a chance to go to heaven and be "moral" yet not allow klingons and wookies the same oppurtunities?

According to the Bible there are no aliens. God created Earth humans and only Earth humans, at least as far as we know.

Quote:

There wouldn't be 'sin', according to you, if your god let everyone do anything they wanted to without getting pissed at them and sending them to hell, we wouldn't have 'sin' or eternal damnation (according to you) to worry about. I don't mind having laws against actions that hurt other people, such as rape, murder, etc. It's the victimless 'sins' that your god declares as 'wrong' that gets me mad.

Do you not understand what sin is yet? Sin is going against what is "good" to God. He can't let you do whatever the heck you want because it violates his nature. If you commit a sin, you violate the perfect universe he created and since he is the epitome of perfection and righteousness, by his own nature that has existed for eternity, he has to punish you. To not punish you would go against his nature and make him unrighteous, if he is unrighteous, he isn't God. We've been through this crap countless times, apparently you are never gonna grasp the concept.

If Adam and Eve, obeyed God and never chose to use their free will to committ disobedience, sin wouldn't exist. God did not create them to sin, He only created the ability for them to sin. If you build a nuclear rocket that is going to be put on a spaceship to take you to another planet, and someone steals that rocket and turns it in to a nuclear bomb to kill humans, are you responsible for the death of those people? No, you didn't kill them, you only created the rocket which had the chance of being misused. Doesn't mean you created it to be a nuclear bomb.

Same with God, he created Free will as a gift to humans to do what is Good and beautiful. He NEVER created it so that the free will would be used for Evil. But humans misued that free will and turned it in to a "nuclear bomb". God isn't responsible for that because he didn't create Free will with the purpose of sin. Free will just by definition can be misused to harbor evil by someone other than God.

Mageth · 03-18-2003, 10:29 AM

For instance, going to church is not for God alone, but rather first for forgivness and then praise.

You left off the tip. God wants his money, you know, 10% of all you own. Put it in the plate they pass between the forgivin' and the praisin'. Pay up or get out. Hallelujah!

Appius · 03-18-2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
[B]You left off the tip. God wants his money, you know, 10% of all you own. Put it in the plate they pass between the forgivin' and the praisin'. Pay up or get out. Hallelujah!

Offering money is something the faithful do out of thanks. It may seem like a command, but to the faithful they willingly and happily wish to please God.

Appius · 03-18-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lamma
Wrong! I wasn't there in the Garden. I didn't make that choice. I didn't ask to be born.
Why am I engaging in this? I almost never do.

One more time; I didn't spin straw into gold, I didn't take the peasent girls baby, and I didn't make her guess my name-which is Rumplestiltskin BTW.

If you wish you can change the we to they. Sorry for the confusion.

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03-18-2003, 12:42 AM	#12
Appius Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: MN, USA Posts: 25	[QUOTE]Originally posted by winstonjen [B]God is ultimately responsible for sin. By defining what he considered to be sin, he created it, and tempted us to 'sin' by creating it. Therefore it is his fault, and he should be burning in hell for all of his sin. Perhaps you mean that since he gave Adam and Eve a command implies that there is an action which is not obeying, thus creating sin along with good? If so we were still tempted, thus certainly having a choice in the matter.

03-18-2003, 10:29 AM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	For instance, going to church is not for God alone, but rather first for forgivness and then praise. You left off the tip. God wants his money, you know, 10% of all you own. Put it in the plate they pass between the forgivin' and the praisin'. Pay up or get out. Hallelujah!

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