Answerer

Well, most theists are muslims, christians and Jews who somehow have the belief that Satan is ulimate manfestation of Evils.

Joe Nobody

Actually, I am not mixing up terms. I am using evil in the sense of disaster. I am not saying a strong pressure gradient force (meteorological description of wind) is to be classified ontologically as evil. I would be using evil in the Isa 45:7 sense as being disaster or calamity.

"7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster; "

The KJV translates it as evil. We know moral-ethical evil is committed, not created. Both fit but the "evil" translation can be misleading to those who cannot properly define evil or know of the various ways.

I am not speaking of moral-ethical evil. That is what you appear to be talking about. I implied there is a difference between the two in my second poist in here. I would not say God is not all good (morally and ethical good) because there is evil (natural evil) in the world. That would be a logical fallacy (equivocation).

I think that first part is just a euphimism. Evil is both an adjective and a noun:

1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing b : a cosmic evil force
2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity

God is the author of evil in this view according to the Isaiah passage depsite the fact that the passage is not rerferring to moral-ethical evil. The adjective definition:

1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c : DISAGREEABLE <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY

And I am not asking why God allows human suffering, but why he created the world the way he did and called it good. God didn't mean the world was morally and ethically good did he? That wouldn't make much sense to me.

I am asking basically why a good God created a world where natural disasters (processes God created) regularly kill many many people.

Those are red herrings. I am asking why Hurricane Mitch formed and killed 10,000 people in a world a good God created and labeled good? Can the question be answered? Is it vacuous?

You can posit vicarious atonement but then I will just extend the question a little. We will be stuck in the same spot I think.

I have not said theire is too much natural evil in the world for there to be a God. I am asking why there is any at all?

You seem to be leaning towards this view: The air that we breath must be thin enough to allow us to fall through it. The rocks that hold us up must be hard enough for us to stub our toes on.
Thanks for your input.

Joe Nobody

Joe Nobody

I think that is a valid question but I caution against anyone trying to use that as an argument. How do we know how much suffering or evil is too much? Is a holocaust where 2,000 people die compatible with God's existences but not a holocaust of 6 million? It also assumes that only the amount of evil we can understand as neccessary or justified is compatible with God. I don't think the "amount" of evil is a reliable indicator of whether God exists or not.

Joe Nobody

Ender

Joe Nobody

Good luck in trying to skewer SOMMS on the evil/suffering question. Given his abject failure at answering my last post in the other thread, why would anybody assume he will succeed where he has choked in the clutch in the past?

By the way, SOMMS, have you had any chance to check out Voltaire's Candide? If so, what do you think?

~WiGGiN~

Brad Messenger

If God is all-good and some suffering is necessary for good/evil distinctions, a perfect balance between good and evil would exist in this world. By that I mean the removal of any evil in this present world would be regarded as bad since that amount of suffering is important. Since so much of our lives are spent trying to eliminate so many evils through medicines and political agreements, this balance does not appear to exist.

In fact, the balance seems far tilted toward too much evil rather than not enough. Once you say "assumes that only the amount of evil we can understand as neccessary or justified is compatible with God" then you're saying that we don't know why there is this evil but God could still exist. Then what reason does one have to think that God is all-good except wishful thinking? It makes God unfalsifiable by saying "we don't know, but it's possible He has a good reason." The defense allows them to escape disconfirmation, but it doesn't impress anyone.

Silent Dave

Just because we are unable to fully describe the world in which no more than the logically or morally necessary amount of human suffering exists doesn't mean that such a world cannot exist. Granted it would be difficult to describe such a world in precise terms, but the concept is not so hopelessly obscure that we cannot have at least partial knowledge of it -- more specifically, the knowledge that it is not this world.

To use the Holocaust example, I don't think it productive to speak in terms of numbers of deaths, because the Holocaust produced so much suffering prior to death, and suffering that did not actually lead to death, the amount of which cannot be expressed with qualitative precision. I cannot describe in precise terms a world in which the Holocaust, if it happened at all, would have contained only the maximum amount of suffering that a loving God would permit, granted. But I do not see this as a serious detriment to the argument from suffering, since there is no reason to think that our world is anywhere near that level.


Dave

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Joe,

Just so we are on the same page...

I think we can agree (more or less)on these terms
evil = moral evil
natural evil = human suffering caused by natural process

I prefer to call 'human suffering caused by natural processes' 'human suffering'. It doesn't really matter what we call them I think we are talking about the same thing.

Your question pertains to the second item...'human suffering from natural process' (natural evil).

On with the show...


I don't think God did. It is important to note the terminolgy...'natural disaster' implies 'people suffering from natural process'. It would be inaccurate to say that every natural process was a 'natural disaster'.

There are hundreds or thousands of eathquakes/volcanic eruptions/meteors/storms a day...almost all go unnoticed. If you look at the ratio of people killed to the number of occurences of these physical phenomenon the number would be almost zero. It is only rare, 'irregular', freak-of-nature(pardon the pun) amplitudes of these processes where people get hurt. As such, it's a bit inacurate to claim people die regularly from the natural processes above.


While emotional...this question is a bit arbitrary. The only thing unique about it is the specific number...asking 'Why did 10,000 people die from some natural process?' In fact, everybody (100%)dies from natural process.

You can just as easily ask 'Why do tens of thousands of people die each year from heart disease in America alone?'. If you define 'natural disaster' as 'human suffering from natural process' this is indeed a far worse disaster than a hurricane or earthquake.

Even better and to the point...'Why does everybody grow old and eventually die?'

This is a far less arbritary (and imho) more meaningful question to ask...'Why would a good God create a world in which there is death?'

For this question there is an answer...it's found in the first few chapters of Genesis.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Veil of Fire

"Well, most theists are muslims, christians and Jews who somehow have the belief that Satan is ulimate manfestation of Evils."

But seeing as you haven't gotten any responses like that yet... how about addressing the responses you HAVE gotten?

Silent Dave

SOMMS, a few questions.

Do you think a valid distinction can be made between premature and non-premature death? If not, why not?

Regarding the last three chapters of Genesis, do you regard the events described therein to be literal historical truth, or allegorical? If the latter, please clarify.

What about common biological occurences, such as appendicitis, that do not (necessarily) lead to death, premature or otherwise, and are not natural "disasters" (in that they are freak occurences with few victims), and yet unquestionably do lead to human suffering?


Dave

atheist_in_foxhole

I have some questions regarding natural evil, and I'd appreciate it if one of our resident theists would help me with them:

1. If your "loving" god exists, then why is the earth placed in an orbit that ensures that it will be struck by incredibly destructive asteroids from time to time?

2. Why did your "loving" god create our sun so that it constantly bombards the earth with all kinds of harmful UV rays? Furthermore, why did he/she/it create the sun so that it will ultimately expand and cook everything in our solar system?

3. Why did your "loving" god create diseases that prey upon the weak and the young?

4. Why did your "loving" god create diseases that become resistant to our best medicines?

5. Why did your "loving" god create diseases like Alzheimer's that cause people to lose control of their minds and in many cases their bowels?

6. Why did your "loving" god design creatures that torture and eat their prey while the prey is fully conscious? Wouldn't you agree that this is beyond cruel?

7. Why did your "loving" god create people with horrific deformaties? Ever hear of the elephant man? Ever seen Siamese twins?

8. Why does your "loving" god allow natural disasters to strike third-world countries that are already dealing with extreme poverty and in some cases war? Why doesn't your god give them a break?

9. Why did your "loving" god allow the Influenza epidemic that occured shortly after WW1? Surely he/she/it knew that we were already suffering enough.

10. Isn't it a fact that these terrible things happen because the universe is a random, chaotic, and cruel place without any loving gods whatsoever? And isn't it a fact that you use your religion as a way of avoiding these unpleasant realities?

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>