Freethought & Rationalism Archive

03-18-2003, 10:00 AM

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Yea Magus55. I've followed your posts for some time and take my hat off to you. You get slagged rotten just because you believe something POSITIVE.

So your definition of positive is "believe what I believe with no evidence or you will spend eternity in endless agony"?

Yes, that is positive...positively insane.:banghead:

Rhea · 03-18-2003, 10:03 AM

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Magus55:
I never said them suffering and being killed was a good thing, but to [christians] - it was only an eye blink of pain compared to eternity of happiness.

You know, something struck me about this. Well, a couple of things.

First off, I believe this is a fairly honest interpretation of Christianity. However horrifying this is to actually think someone can embrace, I do believe it is what the bible tells them to believe. Hence my belief that Christianity is bad for humanity because it _does_ promote this view to anyone who truly believes the bible, and this view is sick. However, it _is_ biblical.

Secondly, it is this very tenet of Christianity that completely trivializes and renders useless Jesus' "sacrifice" on the cross.

John12:25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life

or, in more modern terms,
Gander. Goose. Sauce.

If a christian finds comfort in the existence of the afterlife as a salve against the horrors of humanity, they must not, without fatal contradiction, think Jesus' death was a terribly big deal.

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it was only an eye blink of pain compared to eternity of happiness.

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 11:14 AM

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Originally posted by DoubleDutchy
Magus, this is something I never understood:
Being a robot without a free will is certainly a sad condition.
Thus I guess souls in heaven will dispose of a free will. As I understand, crime doesn't occur heaven (please correct me if I am wrong), free will doesn't seem to imply the occurrance of crime in heaven . Then why does it imply the occurance of crime on earth? Conditions here and there are very different of course, but that's not the point. It is possible to have free will without crime (sin if you like). Then why weren't we created that way right from the beginning ?

PS Don't hesitate to say that you don't know, as might be the case. IMHO that would be a major step forward.

We do have Free will in Heaven. We will have the ability to sin in Heaven, but why would you ever want to? We know the destruction and pain sin causes, because we experience it first hand on Earth. Those who realize they are sinners and confess to Jesus to carry their sins with him on the cross are "reborn" spiritually. They no longer desire to sin and no longer feel no guild or remorse when committing them. We will always sin on Earth because we are in corrupted bodies. Jesus will make our bodies perfect in Heaven, and since we are already spiritually changed to hate sin and want to live like Jesus, we will never sin in Heaven. Just because you don't do something doesn't mean you don't have the ability to. In Heaven we become like Jesus. He was tempted by Satan but by his own nature, he can't committ sin. We have experienced sin and by being reborn through Jesus and by the Holy Spirit, we hate sin and don't desire to live in it. But we are stuck with failing some until we get perfect bodies.

Hope that answered your question

QoS,

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You mean that before Satan fell, he was a robot-like being without free will?

Robot isn't the best term to describe Angels, they are more like eternal employees and God is the employer. God created angels for the sole purpose of carrying out his will and being his messengers, workers. God created Humans to have an eternal, loving relationship with. Angels were created to do specific tasks. There are i think 7 ranks of angels, each having a different purpose. The higher the rank, the closer and more important their task is, just like employees for a business. God is the CEO, Founder, Seraphim are the executives and "cabinet", and plain angels are the mail deliverers. Then there are ranks inbetween.
They are given Free will though, so they can choose to work for God and enjoy living in Heaven. They get to enjoy his wonders and treasures, because the ones that are still there chose to stay employed with God.

Satan wanted to be God. Satan wasn't content with God having authority over him, so he tricked other angels into following him and they rebelled to become fallen angels.

Debbie T · 03-18-2003, 11:35 AM

We do have Free will in Heaven. We will have the ability to sin in Heaven, but why would you ever want to?

Sounds to me like you may have something to worry about then. If you do happen to sin does that mean you have to go directly to hell then? Or will you be forgiven again if you do sin?

We know the destruction and pain sin causes, because we experience it first hand on Earth. Those who realize they are sinners and confess to Jesus to carry their sins with him on the cross are "reborn" spiritually. They no longer desire to sin and no longer feel no guild or remorse when committing them. We will always sin on Earth because we are in corrupted bodies. Jesus will make our bodies perfect in Heaven, and since we are already spiritually changed to hate sin and want to live like Jesus, we will never sin in Heaven. Just because you don't do something doesn't mean you don't have the ability to. In Heaven we become like Jesus. He was tempted by Satan but by his own nature, he can't committ sin. We have experienced sin and by being reborn through Jesus and by the Holy Spirit, we hate sin and don't desire to live in it. But we are stuck with failing some until we get perfect bodies.

So it appears to me that God could have done this here on earth, made us so we wouldn't sin. Sounds like he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. And if he did it once you have no guarantees that is how it will be in heaven.

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 11:52 AM

What are you talking about Debbie? He DID create it on Earth, but he also gave humans Free will and they blew it. We see the sick world that humans have corrupted and we don't want to return to that. We are saved through Jesus on the cross and convicted of sin through the Holy Spirit. We don't like sinning, where as those who are unsaved could care less. God doesn't make mistakes, you just love to blame him. Humans were created perfect, they disobeyed, they brought evil to the world, they corrupted it, they choose to not heed God's warning about Hell, Humans are 100% to blame for whats happened to the world and why they get punished. And you can't deny that because you don't believe in God anyway, and if God didn't exist, humans HAVE to take the blame since no one is above them. Either way, humans are at fault.

wildernesse · 03-18-2003, 11:58 AM

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Humans were created perfect, they disobeyed, they brought evil to the world, they corrupted it, they choose to not heed God's warning about Hell, Humans are 100% to blame for whats happened to the world and why they get punished. And you can't deny that because you don't believe in God anyway, and if God didn't exist, humans HAVE to take the blame since no one is above them. Either way, humans are at fault.

If humans are responsible for the world and human society with God and humans are responsible for the world and human society if there is no God, then how do you know that God is there? You have the same outcome/effects if there is and isn't a God.

In other words, why do you think there is a God?

--tibac

christ-on-a-stick · 03-18-2003, 12:02 PM

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Humans were created perfect, they disobeyed

Does not make sense.

A simple question that has yet to be answered (by any theist here):

If humans were created PERFECT, even with "free will" how could they make an IMPERFECT choice?

A perfect being by definition cannot make an imperfect choice - or they weren't perfect to begin with. Even with "free will", their perfection would mean they woud make perfect choices.

Debbie T · 03-18-2003, 12:06 PM

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Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
A simple question that has yet to be answered (by any theist here):

If humans were created PERFECT, even with "free will" how could they make an IMPERFECT choice?

Exactly ! I will add to this in answer to Magus. How do you have a guarantee this won't happen again in heaven? God blew it once so where is the guarantee?

Debbie T · 03-18-2003, 12:08 PM

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Originally posted by Magus55
What are you talking about Debbie? He DID create it on Earth, but he also gave humans Free will and they blew it. We see the sick world that humans have corrupted and we don't want to return to that. We are saved through Jesus on the cross and convicted of sin through the Holy Spirit. We don't like sinning, where as those who are unsaved could care less. God doesn't make mistakes, you just love to blame him. Humans were created perfect, they disobeyed, they brought evil to the world, they corrupted it, they choose to not heed God's warning about Hell, Humans are 100% to blame for whats happened to the world and why they get punished. And you can't deny that because you don't believe in God anyway, and if God didn't exist, humans HAVE to take the blame since no one is above them. Either way, humans are at fault.

If I create a product and say that it is perfect in every way, if it turns out to be imperfect is it the product's fault or my fault?

Rhea · 03-18-2003, 12:19 PM

Magus55 you say this again...

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We are saved through Jesus on the cross

So I would be interested in your reply to my most recent post (above your CEO post)

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03-18-2003, 11:35 AM	#64
Debbie T Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington the state Posts: 406	We do have Free will in Heaven. We will have the ability to sin in Heaven, but why would you ever want to? Sounds to me like you may have something to worry about then. If you do happen to sin does that mean you have to go directly to hell then? Or will you be forgiven again if you do sin? We know the destruction and pain sin causes, because we experience it first hand on Earth. Those who realize they are sinners and confess to Jesus to carry their sins with him on the cross are "reborn" spiritually. They no longer desire to sin and no longer feel no guild or remorse when committing them. We will always sin on Earth because we are in corrupted bodies. Jesus will make our bodies perfect in Heaven, and since we are already spiritually changed to hate sin and want to live like Jesus, we will never sin in Heaven. Just because you don't do something doesn't mean you don't have the ability to. In Heaven we become like Jesus. He was tempted by Satan but by his own nature, he can't committ sin. We have experienced sin and by being reborn through Jesus and by the Holy Spirit, we hate sin and don't desire to live in it. But we are stuck with failing some until we get perfect bodies. So it appears to me that God could have done this here on earth, made us so we wouldn't sin. Sounds like he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. And if he did it once you have no guarantees that is how it will be in heaven.

03-18-2003, 11:52 AM	#65
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	What are you talking about Debbie? He DID create it on Earth, but he also gave humans Free will and they blew it. We see the sick world that humans have corrupted and we don't want to return to that. We are saved through Jesus on the cross and convicted of sin through the Holy Spirit. We don't like sinning, where as those who are unsaved could care less. God doesn't make mistakes, you just love to blame him. Humans were created perfect, they disobeyed, they brought evil to the world, they corrupted it, they choose to not heed God's warning about Hell, Humans are 100% to blame for whats happened to the world and why they get punished. And you can't deny that because you don't believe in God anyway, and if God didn't exist, humans HAVE to take the blame since no one is above them. Either way, humans are at fault.

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