Freethought & Rationalism Archive

free12thinker · 05-15-2002, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
So last Spring, some starlings built a nest in one of the vents to a bathroom in my house. The nest was in the middle of a 10 foot metallic tube running from the vent down to the fan in the bathroom. I didnt realize it was there until the eggs hatched, and I could hear the chirping every time the mother (father?) brought in a new batch of food. I imagine those baby birds were quite happy and content every time they got their food. But they had no idea of what flying in the open was.

But after a couple of weeks, they became big enough to move around, and three of them fell to the interior fan in the bathroom - gravity at this stage was stronger than their ability to fly or crawl up the tube. At this stage I had the ability to take off the fan and free them. So I took off the fan, and they fell to the ground, flapping around. Needless to say, noting that they had been born in a dark tube, this was a fairly big event for them. My presence scared them tremendously.

They would not let me catch them - they flapped around and one even started to bleed. If they only knew, that if they let me grab them, I could put them out in the open - where they could be free. It was really frustrating to me to have to scramble around to free them - but ultimately I did. I guess if I hadnt been able to grab them, they would have died after the fight.

As it turns out, they were free. Of course they are back this year building nests again.

You probably wont get anything out of this story, but it came to mind as I was thinking about your reply.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

I think I understand your basis for placing this story, but I have to tell you : We are not those little birds. We are not newborns. We are not trapped. We are not bleeding, we are not in pain, and therefore, we don't need help from anyone(thing)(deity).

Perhaps you need the escape that an idea of god provides. And for that, I am glad that I am not you.

Sci_Fidelity · 05-15-2002, 09:55 AM

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The problem you are running into is that you don't credit God with creating you - you have likely never humbled yourself before Him and thanked Him for all of your blessings.

And I suppose it would follow that your sky-daddy also creates the deformed, retarded, autistic, psychotic, etc., and they should be thanking god for their blessings?

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You are too attached to this temporal existence. If you, for one moment, accept that God did create you, you might be able to rid yourself of your belief that earthly death is, in and of itself, a bad thing.

Then whence the commandment?

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has been my experience, for what its worth, that athiests that make arguments like you are making really want to believe in God, and will at some point turn their lives over to Him

You've got to be kidding. Most atheists have been down that road and found it to be a dead end. Do you have anything new to contribute? Anything at all?

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Bobby_G ]

Hobbs · 05-15-2002, 10:03 AM

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Originally posted by RJS:
[QB]That's why I'm here.
QB]

And I commend you for it, and for your polite, civil, sincere, and inquisitive tone. If you have done some lurking around here, you may have seen that not all religious types who come here are nearly as nice. And you've probably also noticed that some of the non-religious types are a little testy and ready to jump down a theist's throat at a moment's notice. If you get throat-jumped, I hope you don't let it bother you: remember that much of it is a reaction to the not-so-nice theists we often have to deal with around here.

I wish you well in your ongoing search for Truth, Jusice, and the American Way (or whatever you want to call it) (and just as I wish myself well in my ongoing search).

Jamie_L · 05-15-2002, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
We also know that during our lives, we will experience both great joy and tremendous suffering.

The problem you are running into is that you don't credit God with creating you - you have likely never humbled yourself before Him and thanked Him for all of your blessings.

You seem to be saying that just being alive is a blessing, and that no matter what horror you experience or how unfair your existence seems compared to someone else's, it's still infinitely better than not existing at all. Have I got that right?

Well, the point in the OP is that life is horribly unfair. If God exists, then it begs the question WHY DID HE MAKE THINGS THIS WAY? Surely an all-powerful God could have made a universe in which all his creations received equal blessings, or at least blessings in proportion to their faith, good acts, etc.

I would imagine there are some people who live so horrible an existance from day one to day final that simply existing is not a blessing, but a punishment. Some people never live long enough to realize they exist at all. Some people NEVER EXPERIENCE GREAT JOY. A lucky few never experience great suffering.

Should a girl in a third-world country who sees her parents butchered, gets taken and forced into slavery, who is routinely beaten and sexually abused, humble herself before God and thank him for all his blessings? Should she credit him with creating her? And if so, shouldn't she also credit him with creating her tormentors, and justly denounce him as a horrible monster?

Jamie

RJS · 05-15-2002, 10:07 AM

Quote:

And I suppose it would follow that your sky-daddy also creates the deformed, retarded, autistic, psychotic, etc., and they should be thanking god for their blessings?

Yes, God created everything, and all should thank God for their blessings (and their trials - but no sense starting that argument too). Michael J. Fox (who is not a Christian as far as I know), in the forward to his book, says he would not trade his past 10 years of suffering from his disease for a disease-free existence. I have also heard similar comments from parents of retarded children. I guess it is all a perspective.

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Then whence the first commandment?

I never said it was okay to murder. In fact, I said it was wrong in a subsequent post.

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You've got to be kidding. Most atheists have been down that road and found it to be a dead end. Do you have anything new to contribute? Anything at all?

Im only speaking from experience. I am new here, so I certainly can't answer whether I can offer anything new. Feel free to ignore me.

Sci_Fidelity · 05-15-2002, 10:22 AM

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Yes, God created everything

Prove it.

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and all should thank God for their blessings (and their trials - but no sense starting that argument too).

Please explain the purpose of these "creations." You know, babies with no arms, simaese twins attached at the heads, that type of thing. While you're at it, visit several African countries and ask the dying kids how thankful they are for their situation.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Bobby_G ]

The Other Michael · 05-15-2002, 10:58 AM

Hello RJS,

Quote:

Yes, God created everything, and all should thank God for their blessings (and their trials - but no sense starting that argument too). Michael J. Fox (who is not a Christian as far as I know), in the forward to his book, says he would not trade his past 10 years of suffering from his disease for a disease-free existence. I have also heard similar comments from parents of retarded children. I guess it is all a perspective.

But everyone knows that Michael J. Fox is the anti-Elvis.

I find myself wondering just how many of the people who claim that their horrible suffering has really been "a blessing" aren't just trying to somehow justify their pain to themselves.

And I can see how someone with certain religious beliefs might say "obviously, since I'm a Good Person, God can't be punishing me, so he must be doing this to improve me, so it's really a blessing in disguise".

This is not to say that there aren't really some people who glory in their misfortune or find it builds character, but I wouldn't, and I can't think of anyone I know who might (though not being a mind reader I can't say for sure).

cheers,
Michael

Philosoft · 05-15-2002, 11:06 AM

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Originally posted by RJS:


For a human to intentionally end the life of another human is horrific. It sounds like you and I share the same Christian values.

Your insults will not be well-received, I assure you.

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The difference is, I guess, that I accept that the Lord can (and will) end everyone's life here in accordance with His will.

At least you can accept that you've heard this. Or did God take thirty minutes one day to explain his will to you?

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Once you come to the conclusion that God did create the universe,

you'll know you've abandoned all reason and objectivity.

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including 100 billion galaxies, most larger than the Milky Way, you kinda have to humble yourself before Him

...immediately after you wonder why the hell he bothered if we're the pinnacle of his creation.

RJS · 05-15-2002, 11:14 AM

Quote:

You seem to be saying that just being alive is a blessing, and that no matter what horror you experience or how unfair your existence seems compared to someone else's, it's still infinitely better than not existing at all. Have I got that right?

Being alive is a blessing - better than not existing. Only chance for eternal life, imo.

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Well, the point in the OP is that life is horribly unfair. If God exists, then it begs the question WHY DID HE MAKE THINGS THIS WAY? Surely an all-powerful God could have made a universe in which all his creations received equal blessings, or at least blessings in proportion to their faith, good acts, etc.

All I know is that He did make it this way. He could have made it many ways, and even decided not to create it. Speculating on what could be is as silly to me as my beliefs are to you.

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I would imagine there are some people who live so horrible an existance from day one to day final that simply existing is not a blessing, but a punishment. Some people never live long enough to realize they exist at all. Some people NEVER EXPERIENCE GREAT JOY. A lucky few never experience great suffering.

Not sure I agree or disagree with you on this. I just dont know. Everyone has the chance to experience joy, however.

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Should a girl in a third-world country who sees her parents butchered, gets taken and forced into slavery, who is routinely beaten and sexually abused, humble herself before God and thank him for all his blessings? Should she credit him with creating her? And if so, shouldn't she also credit him with creating her tormentors, and justly denounce him as a horrible monster?

There are tremendous evils in the world, all of which go against the Christian faith (which in part is responsible for my faith). Plus, there is inherent suffering above and beyond "man-made" evils. In theory, the evils you listed would not exist if we were all strong followers of Christ.

Sci_Fidelity · 05-15-2002, 11:30 AM

Unfortunately, we've seen throughout history what your strong followers of christ can and have done. Thanks, but no thanks.

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05-15-2002, 11:30 AM	#20
Sci_Fidelity Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 595	Unfortunately, we've seen throughout history what your strong followers of christ can and have done. Thanks, but no thanks.

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