Zadok001

Starboy:

Say WHAT, now? What's "quantum determinism," and how does it exist in tandem with free will?

Theli

Not that it matters if determinism is true or not.
This thread was started with the assumption that it was true, and my objection against the infamous nonfreewill argument.
An argument that I find void.

Amos

That is because you didn't find the argument.

Amos

That was just my point and so if "REAL" free will would be possible we would have to be in charge of these higher order functions of our brain. This is why Theli's argument is absurd and not even close to what the free will argument is about. You are correct, free will can exist in the conscious mind.

Amos

Because Theli wants to know if we can ever be "REAL" free because our very will to make a choice is caused by internal or external forces. So for us to be free according to him we must be able to 'eat' or 'not eat', for example, and for us not to eat would mean we would die and since we only get hungry because we are alive we can never really be free to choose to eat or not.

tronvillain

I recommend Dennett's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0262540428/internetinfidelsA/" target="_blank">Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting</a>. Anyway, I take the position that free will is compatible with determinism (random or probablistic) and that the addition of randomness does not make the will more "free." Of course, I think "free will" is simply the ability to make rational decisions based on one's preferences and information about the world.

Theli

Yes, I did, and I quoted from it.
How do you explain that, you mystical creature?

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

Starboy

In order to make predictions and successfully observe them, the universe must be repeatable. What this means is that in some way if you setup the same set of initial conditions and run the experiment the outcome should be the same each time. The question is, what outcomes are allowed? For classical determinism it is one and only one final state, for quantum determinism it can be an infinite number of final states with each state having a probability of occurring. If you could run a quantum experiment enough times you could map out all of the final states. The particular order of outcomes appears to be completely random. Using this phenomenon one can construct a device that behaves like an idealized toss of the coin.

What, you may ask, does this have to do with free will? I have seen it bandied about in this forum that “free will” has something to do with reason. I don’t understand why that must be so. IMO “free will” is the ability to make a “free” choice. As I see it has nothing to do with reason. Reason can be used but is not necessary. The only thing that is required is the ability to make a “free” choice. This is where quantum determinism comes in. All that is necessary to make a free choice of two choices is a random coin.

Starboy

Zadok001

Eh, no. A random choice is not a free choice. Neither is a probabilistic choice. You have no control over the choice being made. The universe rolls a d20, and if it hits a 1, you decide to stand up and do jumping jacks for five minutes before reading the rest of this post.

You didn't CHOOSE FREELY. The universe rolled a die, and you decided to do jumping jacks. It wasn't your choice. It just "happened."

That comes down to free will being the ability to exert control over a choice. It's not just the existance of multiple possible outcomes. It's your ability to CHOOSE an outcome.

tronvillain

An dramatic monologue that should illustrate how ridiculous the "randomness produces free will" position is:

Hi there. Choose life or death, right now. So, you choose life do you? Sorry, this is a free choice - I'll flip this coin, and heads you live, tails you die. *flip* Ah, it came up tails, looks like you die. Hey, what are you complaining about? It was a free choice! Now get back here...