Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LogicMania · 05-26-2002, 03:28 PM

Hmm... that's interesting. That is a possibility that a lot of patients who are diagnosed with depression really do not have it. What do you see as the difference between people who are lazy and don't find solutions to their problems and people who are depressed?

The only thing I can really can say though is that depression is a real thing. It is very important to emphasize that. I know people who have suffered from depression and their vulnerability to pessimism, self-hate, regret and such was as strong as a male's attraction to the opposite sex. A guy cannot look at a nice looking woman for a good period of time without feeling physically attacted as a depressed person can't look at his/her life without feeling some kind of negative feeling about it. They're both bound to a feeling quite strongly. It seems, in a lot of respects, beyond their free will.

I've suffered from anxiety. Anxiety is basically like depression except it's not about the past it's about the future. Anxiety only sees bad things coming in the future for you, depression only saw the bad thing that happened to you in the past. I never saw a psychologist about my anxiety (which was more specifically a social anxiety) but I myself could not get myself out of it. I had to expose myself to people as much as I could. I asked all the time what friends thought of me. I even kind of had a performance anxiety for a while. It is not easy to get yourself out of those kinds of anxieties at all. You need lots of feedback. Second opinions work too. That's what psychologists are good at (at least should be good at).

Basically, different perspectives must be kept when it comes to anxiety and depression. The little voice in your head over criticizing you must be questioned. It is loud at first but over time it loses its strong hold. If it doesn't, then it is conceivable that there is a chemical imbalance.

Quote:

Originally posted by SirenSpeak:
Hmmm...anyone remember my thoughts on this not too long ago?

I have frequently found that the majority of depressed people are not indeed depressed. Indeed, they are only looking for an easy solution to their problems. Pretty sad...

I have made these conclusions through research, which I have done mostly related to schoolwork, and some on my own, talking to various doctors.

I feel that this is becoming an epidemic, not easily solved.

You cannot tell me that you do not see a pattern devolping in modern american medicine.
The focus as of late has been, for the most part, aesthetic, or for our mental "health."

And yes...please don't flame me saying I dont realize that some people need these meds...yes I agree. Some people really do need these meds, and for those people I am glad they exist.

For the most part though, people seek these out because it is much easier to dope yourself up then to face your problems and try to actually solve them.

And again, please, no flames about how insensitive I am. I already stated that I realize the need exists.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000192" target="_blank">this</a> is the thread I started earlier about this same thing...it has a few more thoughts on the subject.

_____________________________________________

edited to add some food for thought from that first article...

See my point? for the most part...it's all in the mind.

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]

Pseudonymph · 05-26-2002, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LogicMania:
Hmm... that's interesting. That is a possibility that a lot of patients who are diagnosed with depression really do not have it. What do you see as the difference between people who are lazy and don't find solutions to their problems and people who are depressed?

What is the difference? The medical difference or the personal difference?

Medical...would have to do with chemical inbalances(for the most part)...often times these drugs(or even, as these articles propose, sugar pills, placebos) restore these chemicals.

Personal...some people are just lazy...this is akin to spending the night in a liqour bottle, as opposed to working things out with your children, wife etc.

"it's easier to lose yourself in drugs and booze than it is to face your problems" -Morgan Freeman in Seven.

For far too many people, these meds are no different than smoking a joint or boozing. It helps them relax and daze out, rather than face what problems they have.

I understand what you are saying though...as I said I have been through depression and anxiety myself.

Follow the link I provided to the thread I started earlier for more insight on my thoughts on this.

Detached9 · 05-26-2002, 08:05 PM

For the most part though, people seek these out because it is much easier to dope yourself up then to face your problems and try to actually solve them.

I agree. I'll check out the thread you started now...

Mad Kally · 05-26-2002, 08:36 PM

Quote:

One of the most significant but widely misunderstood phenomena is the placebo effect. Research shows that the placebo effect can be greater and is far more ubiquitous than commonly thought.

Paracelsus (Swiss alchemist and physician 1493-1541) wrote: "You must know that the will is a powerful adjuvant of medicine." It is imperative that skeptics recognize the wisdom and warnings inherent in this statement.

<a href="http://www.csicop.org/si/9701/placebo.html" target="_blank">http://www.csicop.org/si/9701/placebo.html</a>

Detached9 · 05-27-2002, 10:20 AM

That's odd MadKally, I have conflicting studies. Read about the 5th paragraph and down from there. The placebo effect isn't as strong as once imagined it was. People just naturally heal on their own, with or without the placebo.

<a href="http://www.studyworksonline.com/cda/content/article/0,,NAV4-42_SAR1112,00.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.studyworksonline.com/cda/content/article/0,,NAV4-42_SAR1112,00.shtml</a>

Quote:

(CLIP FROM LINK) To get at this issue they analyzed 114 studies published between 1946 and 1998 that had not two but three groups of patients. In addition to the two groups receiving a medication or a placebo, there was a third group that received nothing � no medication and no placebo. To the doctors' surprise, patients in the third group improved as often as those in the placebo group. In addition, they could find no objective measure of improvement in the placebo group, such as lowered blood pressure.

[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Detached9 ]

Mad Kally · 05-27-2002, 10:49 AM

Quote:

posted by Detached9:
That's odd MadKally, I have conflicting studies. Read about the 5th paragraph and down from there. The placebo effect isn't as strong as once imagined it was. People just naturally heal on their own, with or without the placebo.

Here is an article from <a href="http://www.sciam.com/2001/1001issue/1001scicit2.html" target="_blank"> Scientific American </a> regarding the Danish study:

Quote:

The media responded to the Danish study by gleefully vivisecting the placebo effect. "It's a scam," sneered the Boston Globe. "More myth than science," pronounced the New York Times. Within several weeks, a new medical fact was born: placebos don't do diddly.

Most likely, both facts are wrong. People who participate in clinical trials often get better (or seem to) regardless of whether they receive experimental therapy, dummy treatment or nothing at all, for numerous reasons. But there are also good reasons to doubt the new charge that placebos are worthless.

*snip*

Neurologists used positron emission tomography (PET) to estimate dopamine activity inside the diseased part of six patients' brains after they were injected with either inactive saline solution or apomorphine, a drug that mimics dopamine. When the subjects were given a placebo shot, their brains released as much dopamine (which is suppressed in Parkinson's disease) as when they got active drugs, Stoessl says. This is one of very few studies ever to look beyond whether a placebo works to how it works. Until many more like it are done, the placebo effect will remain a mystery--and that's a fact.

NialScorva · 05-27-2002, 11:16 AM

Hrm, would it be so far-fetched to say that one's mental state can affect some problems and not others? Using placebos in testing is a way of controlling for not knowing whether the mind can affect that malady. If the placebo is inneffective, then it's no different than giving nothing. If it's effective, then it's the baseline you want.

You also have to look at the effectiveness with regards to context. Anti-depressents are effective given the proper diagnoses. Anti-biotics are effective given that the patient isn't a hypocondriac or has a virus misdiagnosed as a bacterial infection.

In addition, consider that in most cases, a person will survive a bacterial infection, does this mean that anti-biotics are no better than a placebo?

Detached9 · 05-27-2002, 12:11 PM

Here is an article from Scientific American regarding the Danish study:

Thanks for the link MadKally, I'll have to do more research on this topic.

abe smith · 05-28-2002, 06:39 AM

Recall that decade-or -two ago study of factory workers {This is germane to the subject = whether placebos work}. The factory study maybe by Steven or Stanley? Milgram? seemed to establish that ANY attention whatever , given to a group of factory workers {specific; I forget nearly all of the article I'm referring to} *improved* their morale AND their OUTPUT and reduced negative stuff {+injuries, absenteeism, etc.] The summary idea seemed to be that NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO TO PEOPLE, merely evincing your INTEREST in them is beneficial. Dunno of there's any objectve validity in this. Worth some substantiating follow-up, ne? Abe HI, KALLY! XXXXOOOOO

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05-26-2002, 08:05 PM	#13
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	For the most part though, people seek these out because it is much easier to dope yourself up then to face your problems and try to actually solve them. I agree. I'll check out the thread you started now...

05-27-2002, 11:16 AM	#17
NialScorva Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Median strip of DC beltway Posts: 1,888	Hrm, would it be so far-fetched to say that one's mental state can affect some problems and not others? Using placebos in testing is a way of controlling for not knowing whether the mind can affect that malady. If the placebo is inneffective, then it's no different than giving nothing. If it's effective, then it's the baseline you want. You also have to look at the effectiveness with regards to context. Anti-depressents are effective given the proper diagnoses. Anti-biotics are effective given that the patient isn't a hypocondriac or has a virus misdiagnosed as a bacterial infection. In addition, consider that in most cases, a person will survive a bacterial infection, does this mean that anti-biotics are no better than a placebo?

05-27-2002, 12:11 PM	#18
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	Here is an article from Scientific American regarding the Danish study: Thanks for the link MadKally, I'll have to do more research on this topic.

05-28-2002, 06:39 AM	#19
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Recall that decade-or -two ago study of factory workers {This is germane to the subject = whether placebos work}. The factory study maybe by Steven or Stanley? Milgram? seemed to establish that ANY attention whatever , given to a group of factory workers {specific; I forget nearly all of the article I'm referring to} improved their morale AND their OUTPUT and reduced negative stuff {+injuries, absenteeism, etc.] The summary idea seemed to be that NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO TO PEOPLE, merely evincing your INTEREST in them is beneficial. Dunno of there's any objectve validity in this. Worth some substantiating follow-up, ne? Abe HI, KALLY! XXXXOOOOO

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