Freethought & Rationalism Archive

viscousmemories · 07-31-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
The Nun Study:

http://www.mc.uky.edu/nunnet/

Gemma Therese

That's a pretty amusing site, thanks. Still, I don't think a survey of 678 septuagenarian (and up) alzheimer patients is really a conclusive study. But I really don't want to spend much more time picking apart that site, as that would require me to stay there more than 5 seconds.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
They could leave without permission, but it is a grave sin to break one's vows.

Gemma Therese

Indeed. So you concede, then, based on the fact that they may choose to sin and leave, that they have not really given up their freedom?

vm

Sarpedon · 07-31-2003, 08:54 AM

Lets assume for a moment, that nuns are happy. (a big assumption: I recall reading that 40% of nuns in the united states admitted to being sexually abused, either by their priests or by fellow nuns)

How many nuns are there in the world? 100,000? 200,000? 500,00? I seriously don't know. I bet its a relatively small number.

How many women are there in the world? 3,000,000,000. Even if we say there are half a million nuns (a VERY liberal estimate, probably counting the buddhists too) then we would have 1/150 of a % of all women are happy nuns. If there were a god, and if he was the cause of nunish happiness, then we could expect that there would be more nuns. As only an inconsiderable minority are nuns, it can reasonably be posited that among those 3,000,000,000 there are some women who enjoy the nun lifestyle, just as there are some women who enjoy being tied up and spanked. You could raise the number of nuns by two orders of magnitude (50,000,000 nuns!) and still have less than one percent of the population, few enough to dissmiss it as an aberration of a few subjects, while the majority of women seem to prefer a life of freedom, work, and material gain.

Math: The dispeller of stupid theistic arguments.

Enlighten Me · 07-31-2003, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
They could leave without permission, but it is a grave sin to break one's vows.

Gemma Therese

So now we know that they remain nuns because they are easily persuaded by "authority" that their souls would be in
"grave" peril if they assert their own wills----another characteristic that drives women to convents.

livius drusus · 07-31-2003, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
How is it that there are so many happy, joyous, and fufilled nuns in the world? These women have given up freedom, possessions, children, and marraige, and yet, they are joyful. Many have no desire to be preists and are satisfied with their role in the Church.

Many are unhappy, depressed, dissatisfied with their lives. Some leave, some stay, miserable until the day they die. Do the unhappy nuns support the nonexistence of God?

I have no idea what the "study" of nuns over the age of 75 and their rates of alzheimer's has to do with the issue of happiness and satisfaction, but it just so happens that St. Louis University did a study on the lives of nuns that is actually on point. Of course, they kept it secret until the Post-Dispatch got a hold of it, because as usual, the Church prefers to cover up its rot than expose it to public view.

Nuns As Sexual Victims Get Little Notice:

Quote:

A national survey, completed in 1996 but intentionally never publicized, estimates that a "minimum" of 34,000 Catholic nuns, or about 40 percent of all nuns in the United States, have suffered some form of sexual trauma. Some of that sexual abuse, exploitation or harassment has come at the hands of priests and other nuns in the church, the report said. The survey was conducted by researchers at St. Louis University and was paid for, in part, by several orders of Catholic nuns. The study, recently obtained by the Post-Dispatch, indicates that the victimization often has had devastating psychological effects on the women. Many of the nuns said they were left with feelings of anger, shame, anxiety and depression. Some said it made them consider leaving religious life, and a few said they had attempted suicide.

Ronin · 07-31-2003, 09:11 AM

Gemma ~

My mother was a nun for three years (Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament ~ Drexler), her sister, my Aunt Collen, was a nun for thirteen years in St. Louis...and my Uncle Danny was training to be a priest.

Each left due to sincere dissatisfaction with not only the Catholic church, but the whole Christ corporation.

They each found real human love and raised families...they are, by far, happier outside of the church.

During my childhood, I found priests and nuns to be very sad, dour humans.

Do you have any record of the number of those simply leaving the convent of Christ due to simple unhappiness?

I don't suppose the church would reveal a statistic like that...but I'd be interested if you could come up with a source.

Barcode · 07-31-2003, 09:11 AM

I'd be interested if there were any studies on the personalities of people drawn into this kind of lifestyle.

Seems to me to an escape from the reality of the modern world ... nothing more, nothing less.

A belief in God merely exacerbates whatever personality traits were there in the first place ... the desire to be alone (to pray, serve the Lord) ... reclusiveness ... an inability to form real relationships in the real world as opposed to the one taking place in their heads (God) and so on ...

Ensign Steve · 07-31-2003, 10:54 AM

Children believe in Santa Claus.
Children are happy and joyous.
.: Santa Claus exists.

what-ever.

Shadowy Man · 07-31-2003, 11:26 AM

Jewish children don't believe in Santa Claus.
.:Jewish children are not happy and joyous.

elektra · 07-31-2003, 11:50 AM

The premise of this thread is somewhat whacky. You mention a whole load of things that nuns foresake as part of their vows, but you do not explain why any of these should be regarded as necessary for happiness. There are many happy people without one or all of freedom, possessions, children and marriage. Why should nuns be different from the rest of us? They don't need any of those things to be happy, any more than most of us do.

Milton · 07-31-2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ensign Steve
Children believe in Santa Claus.
Children are happy and joyous.
.: Santa Claus exists.

what-ever.

You forget that these children get gifts. Does that mean that the nuns get something out of this? The children get material things. What do the nuns get?

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07-31-2003, 08:54 AM	#22
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Lets assume for a moment, that nuns are happy. (a big assumption: I recall reading that 40% of nuns in the united states admitted to being sexually abused, either by their priests or by fellow nuns) How many nuns are there in the world? 100,000? 200,000? 500,00? I seriously don't know. I bet its a relatively small number. How many women are there in the world? 3,000,000,000. Even if we say there are half a million nuns (a VERY liberal estimate, probably counting the buddhists too) then we would have 1/150 of a % of all women are happy nuns. If there were a god, and if he was the cause of nunish happiness, then we could expect that there would be more nuns. As only an inconsiderable minority are nuns, it can reasonably be posited that among those 3,000,000,000 there are some women who enjoy the nun lifestyle, just as there are some women who enjoy being tied up and spanked. You could raise the number of nuns by two orders of magnitude (50,000,000 nuns!) and still have less than one percent of the population, few enough to dissmiss it as an aberration of a few subjects, while the majority of women seem to prefer a life of freedom, work, and material gain. Math: The dispeller of stupid theistic arguments.

07-31-2003, 09:11 AM	#25
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	Gemma ~ My mother was a nun for three years (Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament ~ Drexler), her sister, my Aunt Collen, was a nun for thirteen years in St. Louis...and my Uncle Danny was training to be a priest. Each left due to sincere dissatisfaction with not only the Catholic church, but the whole Christ corporation. They each found real human love and raised families...they are, by far, happier outside of the church. During my childhood, I found priests and nuns to be very sad, dour humans. Do you have any record of the number of those simply leaving the convent of Christ due to simple unhappiness? I don't suppose the church would reveal a statistic like that...but I'd be interested if you could come up with a source.

07-31-2003, 09:11 AM	#26
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	I'd be interested if there were any studies on the personalities of people drawn into this kind of lifestyle. Seems to me to an escape from the reality of the modern world ... nothing more, nothing less. A belief in God merely exacerbates whatever personality traits were there in the first place ... the desire to be alone (to pray, serve the Lord) ... reclusiveness ... an inability to form real relationships in the real world as opposed to the one taking place in their heads (God) and so on ...

07-31-2003, 10:54 AM	#27
Ensign Steve Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Augusta, Georgia, United States Posts: 1,235	Children believe in Santa Claus. Children are happy and joyous. .: Santa Claus exists. what-ever.

07-31-2003, 11:26 AM	#28
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	Jewish children don't believe in Santa Claus. .:Jewish children are not happy and joyous.

07-31-2003, 11:50 AM	#29
elektra Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Aristasia Posts: 48	The premise of this thread is somewhat whacky. You mention a whole load of things that nuns foresake as part of their vows, but you do not explain why any of these should be regarded as necessary for happiness. There are many happy people without one or all of freedom, possessions, children and marriage. Why should nuns be different from the rest of us? They don't need any of those things to be happy, any more than most of us do.

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