Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EstherRose · 06-20-2003, 07:12 PM

Please specify. I do not see a contradiction between Jesus' words about salvation and Paul's. They are part of a unified divinely inspired Word of God.

Jesus said here:
Mark 16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

He also said that
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Please note that the Gospel does not say whoever believes in Him and does works shall not perish.

06-20-2003, 09:49 PM

(John 3:16) �For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

This is done to reflect different shades of meaning that are expressed by the Greek word pi�steu�o.

For example, A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by James Moulton, notes that early Christians clearly recognized �the importance of the difference between mere belief . . . and personal trust.� Both these thoughts can be expressed using the Greek word pi�steu�o.

Often, the different shades of meaning of pi�steu�o must be discerned from the context. At times, though, different grammatical constructions help us to see what the writer had in mind. For example, if pi�steu�o is followed merely by a noun in the dative case, the NWT usually rendered simply as �believe��unless the context indicates something different. (Matthew 21:25,_32; but see Romans 4:3.) If pi�steu�o is followed by the word e�pi�, �on,� it is generally rendered �believe on.� (Matthew 27:42; Acts 16:31) If it is followed by eis, �to,� it is usually translated �exercise faith in.��John 12:36; 14:1.

This latter rendering (which reminds us that pi�steu�o is related to the Greek word pi�stis, �faith�) is in harmony with a comment in An Introductory Grammar of New Testament Greek, by Paul Kaufman. This work says: �Another construction which is common in the New Testament (especially in John�s Gospel) is [pi�steu�o] with [eis] and the accusative case . . . The whole construction of plus the accusative must be translated rather than attempting to translate the preposition as an isolated word. Faith is thought of as an activity, as something men do, i.e._putting faith into someone.�

Max

06-20-2003, 10:05 PM

Is "Once Saved Always Saved" Eternal Security/Salvation Scriptural?

According to the Bible, Christians can:

drift away (Heb. 2:1) NIV
stray (Mt. 18:12,13) NWT
wander away from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
deviate from the truth and overturn the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:18) HCSB
lose your saltiness (Lk. 14:34,35) NRSV
stumble (Mk. 14:27,29) NKJV
turn away from grace (Gal. 5:4) Bible in Basic English
believe for a time, and in time of trial fall away. (Lk. 8:13) Darby
stumble and fall (Mt. 24:10) Wesley NT
stray from these things, turn aside to fruitless discussion (1 Tim. 1:5,6) NASB
turn back to their old ways of living and not go along with Jesus after that (Jn. 6:66) New Life
have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19) Recovery Version
leave the right path and wander off to follow the path of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) NJB
be like a branch that is thrown away and dries up (Jn. 15:6) Beck
fall over stumbling blocks (Jn. 16:1) C.B. Williams
turn away, become Satan's follower (1 Tim. 5:15) Heinz Casirrer New Covenant
desert from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1) Barclay
turn their hearing away from the truth and turned aside to myths (2 Tim. 4:4) Concordant
develop an evil unbelieving heart that pulls away from the living God (Heb. 3:12) International English Bible
fall away from the faith so that it won't be possible to bring you back (Heb. 6:6) NIrV
turn away from him who warneth us from heaven (Heb. 12:25) Worrell NT
become lukewarm and get spit out of the mouth of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16) 21st Century NT
to be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11) Byington
have God take away your rights to the Tree of Life and the holy city (Rev. 22:19) Unvarnished NT/Gaus
be led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. (2 Pet. 3:17) KJV
be carried away with strange varieities of teachings (Heb. 13:9)

Max

EstherRose · 06-21-2003, 01:35 AM

1 Corinthians 12
13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Ephesians 1
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 10
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Once the Holy Spirit is within us, we are part of the body of Christ. We can never be removed from the body. I have been assured of my salvation.

06-21-2003, 01:58 AM

What is really interesting is the way that 1 Timothy ends. Not only do we have an admonishment to fight the fine fight of the faith (6:12), but we "are to do good, to be rich in good deeds, liberal and generous, thus laying up for themselves a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed. O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith." 6:18-21 RSV

How can we "miss the mark" if we are all destined to be saved? Why should store up treasures by good works if everyone will be universally saved anyways?

Max

Geoff Hudson · 06-21-2003, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Does anyone know the correct interpretation of these words in the epistle of Paul to the Romans?

Romans 2:5-8.

{5} By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath and revelation for the just judgment of God,
{6} who will repay everyone according to his works:
{7} eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
{8} but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Romans 2:13-16.

{13} For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
{14} For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
{15} They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughs accuse or even defend them
{16} on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

best,
Peter Kirby

Try this:

Chapter 2

THE SPIRIT�S JUDGEMENT WHEN?

(1)You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment [do] {OBEY} the same [things] {spirits}.

(2)Now we know that God's judgment against those who [do] {obey} such [things] {spirits} is [based on his righteousness] {by his Spirit}.

(3)So when you, [a mere] {an impure} [man] {spirit}, pass judgment on them and yet [do] {OBEY} the same [things] {spirits}, do you think you will escape {the Spirit of} God's judgment?

(4)Or do you show contempt for�
[the riches of his kindness and patience, not realising that]
�God's [kindness] {Spirit} that [leads] {calls} you towards [repentance] {OBEDIENCE}?

(5)But because of your�
[stubbornness and your unrepentant]
�{DISOBEDIENT} [heart] {spirit}, you are storing up [wrath] {condemnation} against yourself for the [day] {Spirit} of God's [wrath] {judgement.}

[, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.]

(6){The Spirit of} God will give to each person according to
[what he has done]
{his OBEDIENCE}.

(7)To those who by persistence in [doing good] {obeying the Spirit}�
[seek glory, honour and immortality,]
�he will give [eternal life] {purification}.

(8)But for those who�
[are self-seeking, and who]
�reject the [truth] {Spirit} and [follow] {obey} [evil] {their spirit of deceit} there will be [wrath] {condemnation}
[and anger].

(9)There will be [trouble] {condemnation}�
[and distress]
�for every [human being] {spirit} who [does evil] {disobeys the Spirit}: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

(10)but
[glory, honour and peace]
{purification} for everyone who [does good] {obeys the Spirit}: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

(11)For [the Spirit of} God does not show favouritism.

(12)All who [sin] {disobey the Spirit} apart from the law will be judged by the Spirit,

and all who obey {the Spirit} under the law will be judged by the Spirit.

(13)For it is not those who HEAR the [law] {Spirit} who are [righteous] {pure} in God's sight, but it is those who OBEY the [law] {Spirit} who will be
[declared righteous] {purified}.

(14)Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, [do] {obey} by [nature] {their spirit of truth} things required by the [law] {Spirit}, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the [requirements of the law] {Spirit}
[are] {is}
[written] {received}
[on] {in}
their [hearts] {spirits}.

(16)[This will take place on the day when]

God will judge men's [secrets] {spirits}
through [Jesus Christ] {the Spirit}, as [my gospel] {he} declares.

Note:

There is no special �day� of judgement for spirits. Judgement occurs immediately the spirit of a person rises at death.

Geoff

Peter Kirby · 06-21-2003, 05:26 AM

Geoff, your presentations convince me only that the Bible is a Rorschach test.

best,
Peter Kirby

Geoff Hudson · 06-21-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Geoff, your presentations convince me only that the Bible is a Rorschach test.

best,
Peter Kirby

I have no idea what you are saying.

I have now done the same with a wide range of NT documents, and am convinced that there was an early consistent theology that was subsequently edited. The recovery of that theology, helps in penetrating the garbled history in Acts and the Gospels.

I have applied the same approach with regard to some of the garbled writings, which appear to be numerous, in Josephus' works. Scholars pick and choose from Josephus without acknowledging just how much garbled material there is. For example, some are quite happy to comment on the TF while ignoring the adjacent Paulina and Mundus affair. Now come-on, who has cracked that one? Tell me!

I am amazed at the number of different approaches to interpretation on Crosstalk. A number in the group think in terms of anything but "feet-on-the-ground" history.

So, Peter, I am not deterred by Rorschach, whoever he/she was, or anyone else.

Geoff

hingers · 06-21-2003, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
You must means works of obedience like following Jesus' orders in Luke 19:27

Christians of today love to say that the Spanish Inquistion and the massacre of millions of "savages" in the New World was done by people who weren't "true christians." On the contrary, they were doing exactly what their god ordered. Jesus wanted them to kill people who did not worship him. It is meaningless to say a christian will always do good works to reflect his love of god. Since god is always considered right, whatever the church does will be considered right at the time it is done, only later, when people become less savage do people look back at it and say it was "unchristian".

Yes, I know there are plenty of "apologetic" reasons why you are going to say that Luke 19:27 does not mean to kill people. But the words are clear. Going through verbal gymnastics to come up with some excuse does not change the plain words in the text.

Besides, lets say it doesn't mean Jesus is condoning killing his enemies. Since Jesus is supposed to know the future he would know that millions of people would die because of that order. He would be very stupid (or a sicko) not to rephrase the words so people would understand him. I would say this and other anti-semitic verses in the NT are what caused all the hatred of the Jews and eventually led to the Holocaust.

Just to clear things up, Jesus is actually speaking in a parable in Luke 19:27, the man who orders people to be brought into his presence and killed is actually a character in a story Jesus is telling.

Paul Baxter · 06-23-2003, 06:45 PM

Peter,

I can't directly answer your particlar question, but this debate is something I'm in the middle of studying. BTW, for a very thorough and thoughtful look at those verses, I remember Cranfield having some interesting things to say.

But on to the larger point. The direction of current Pauline studies is away from "justification by faith alone" as the over-arching theme of Paul. Douglas Harink's brand new book (Paul Among the Postliberals) demonstrates that Paul only contrasts "faith" and "works" (or "works of the law") when writing about Gentile-Jew conflict. Even a cursory look at what Paul says about works in other passages (I Thess 4 comes to mind), shows that Paul had no problem with the idea of works.

There are undoubtedly scores of wrinkles and arguments involved here, but it is clear at least in my own mind that Paul did not think that the essence of "the gospel" was justification by faith apart from works. If it was he certainly forgot to preach it in the stories in Acts or in the majority of the epistles, or to even bring it up in the story of his own conversion.

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06-20-2003, 07:12 PM	#11
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Please specify. I do not see a contradiction between Jesus' words about salvation and Paul's. They are part of a unified divinely inspired Word of God. Jesus said here: Mark 16 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned He also said that John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Please note that the Gospel does not say whoever believes in Him and does works shall not perish.

06-20-2003, 09:49 PM	#12
YHWHtruth Guest Posts: n/a	(John 3:16) �For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. This is done to reflect different shades of meaning that are expressed by the Greek word pi�steu�o. For example, A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by James Moulton, notes that early Christians clearly recognized �the importance of the difference between mere belief . . . and personal trust.� Both these thoughts can be expressed using the Greek word pi�steu�o. Often, the different shades of meaning of pi�steu�o must be discerned from the context. At times, though, different grammatical constructions help us to see what the writer had in mind. For example, if pi�steu�o is followed merely by a noun in the dative case, the NWT usually rendered simply as �believe��unless the context indicates something different. (Matthew 21:25,_32; but see Romans 4:3.) If pi�steu�o is followed by the word e�pi�, �on,� it is generally rendered �believe on.� (Matthew 27:42; Acts 16:31) If it is followed by eis, �to,� it is usually translated �exercise faith in.��John 12:36; 14:1. This latter rendering (which reminds us that pi�steu�o is related to the Greek word pi�stis, �faith�) is in harmony with a comment in An Introductory Grammar of New Testament Greek, by Paul Kaufman. This work says: �Another construction which is common in the New Testament (especially in John�s Gospel) is [pi�steu�o] with [eis] and the accusative case . . . The whole construction of plus the accusative must be translated rather than attempting to translate the preposition as an isolated word. Faith is thought of as an activity, as something men do, i.e._putting faith into someone.� Max

06-20-2003, 10:05 PM	#13
YHWHtruth Guest Posts: n/a	Is "Once Saved Always Saved" Eternal Security/Salvation Scriptural? According to the Bible, Christians can: drift away (Heb. 2:1) NIV stray (Mt. 18:12,13) NWT wander away from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21) deviate from the truth and overturn the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:18) HCSB lose your saltiness (Lk. 14:34,35) NRSV stumble (Mk. 14:27,29) NKJV turn away from grace (Gal. 5:4) Bible in Basic English believe for a time, and in time of trial fall away. (Lk. 8:13) Darby stumble and fall (Mt. 24:10) Wesley NT stray from these things, turn aside to fruitless discussion (1 Tim. 1:5,6) NASB turn back to their old ways of living and not go along with Jesus after that (Jn. 6:66) New Life have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19) Recovery Version leave the right path and wander off to follow the path of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) NJB be like a branch that is thrown away and dries up (Jn. 15:6) Beck fall over stumbling blocks (Jn. 16:1) C.B. Williams turn away, become Satan's follower (1 Tim. 5:15) Heinz Casirrer New Covenant desert from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1) Barclay turn their hearing away from the truth and turned aside to myths (2 Tim. 4:4) Concordant develop an evil unbelieving heart that pulls away from the living God (Heb. 3:12) International English Bible fall away from the faith so that it won't be possible to bring you back (Heb. 6:6) NIrV turn away from him who warneth us from heaven (Heb. 12:25) Worrell NT become lukewarm and get spit out of the mouth of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16) 21st Century NT to be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11) Byington have God take away your rights to the Tree of Life and the holy city (Rev. 22:19) Unvarnished NT/Gaus be led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. (2 Pet. 3:17) KJV be carried away with strange varieities of teachings (Heb. 13:9) Max

06-21-2003, 01:35 AM	#14
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	1 Corinthians 12 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Ephesians 1 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 4 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. John 10 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." Once the Holy Spirit is within us, we are part of the body of Christ. We can never be removed from the body. I have been assured of my salvation.

06-21-2003, 01:58 AM	#15
YHWHtruth Guest Posts: n/a	What is really interesting is the way that 1 Timothy ends. Not only do we have an admonishment to fight the fine fight of the faith (6:12), but we "are to do good, to be rich in good deeds, liberal and generous, thus laying up for themselves a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed. O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith." 6:18-21 RSV How can we "miss the mark" if we are all destined to be saved? Why should store up treasures by good works if everyone will be universally saved anyways? Max

06-21-2003, 05:26 AM	#17
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Geoff, your presentations convince me only that the Bible is a Rorschach test. best, Peter Kirby

06-23-2003, 06:45 PM	#20
Paul Baxter Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Mebane, NC Posts: 64	Peter, I can't directly answer your particlar question, but this debate is something I'm in the middle of studying. BTW, for a very thorough and thoughtful look at those verses, I remember Cranfield having some interesting things to say. But on to the larger point. The direction of current Pauline studies is away from "justification by faith alone" as the over-arching theme of Paul. Douglas Harink's brand new book (Paul Among the Postliberals) demonstrates that Paul only contrasts "faith" and "works" (or "works of the law") when writing about Gentile-Jew conflict. Even a cursory look at what Paul says about works in other passages (I Thess 4 comes to mind), shows that Paul had no problem with the idea of works. There are undoubtedly scores of wrinkles and arguments involved here, but it is clear at least in my own mind that Paul did not think that the essence of "the gospel" was justification by faith apart from works. If it was he certainly forgot to preach it in the stories in Acts or in the majority of the epistles, or to even bring it up in the story of his own conversion.

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