Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Transworldly Depraved · 01-10-2002, 04:38 PM

Theists want to insist both that God is perfectly good (omnibenevolence) and that humans have freedom to choose between good and evil (moral freedom).

God's perfect goodness seems to amount to the claim that necessarily God does no evil. Moral freedom is the power to choose between good and evil alternatives.

If moral freedom requires the ability to choose other than we in fact choose and God's perfect goodness implies that God necessarily does that which is good, then God cannot be morally free.

If moral freedom is such a great good and a good that outweighs evils which it leads to, then why does God not possess it? Does that not imply that we are superior to God in some way?

This seems to be a difficulty for theistic belief.

David Gould · 01-10-2002, 04:58 PM

Perhaps.

But isn't the freedom of moral choice that humans allegedly have only in place so we can choose to love God?

To say that it would be a greater good for God to be able to freely choose to love himself rather than be forced to do so by his nature does not seem to me to be satisfactory.

The knowledge of himself that he has combined with his nature seems to me to suggest that he would always choose to love himself, even if free to do otherwise.

So, he may be free to not love himself but there would be no way to tell the difference.

I think that Christians would argue that our ability to do evil stems directly from the freedom to choose to love God or not.

Those that do not choose to love God truly will inevitiably cause evil.

chickensoupforthebowl · 01-10-2002, 05:13 PM

Wow, how original.

David Gould · 01-10-2002, 05:21 PM

I think it is unlikely that we will come up with much that is original when pondering the existence or otherwise of God. After all, many of the world's greatest philosophers have devoted much time to the question. The only relevant point is whether it is original from the point of view of those who discuss it.

A view you have never heard before is original to you...

Albert Cipriani · 01-10-2002, 08:45 PM

Well said David,
The Catholic Church states it this way:
The 1st Vatican Council taught: "God loves Himself necessarily." (Necessario amat seipsum.)

St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica I 19, 1 ad 3: put it this way: "The object of the Divine Will is His own Goodness which is His essence."

In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, the de fide belief is stated thusly: "The imperfection which belongs to created volition must not be ascribed to the notion of the Divine freedom. Therefore the Divine freedom is not libertas contrarietatis, that is, a freedom to choose between good and evil; for the possibility of willing evil is indeed a sign of freedom, but it is not of the essence of freedom, and signifies rather imperfection." -- Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Bill Snedden · 01-11-2002, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Transworldly Depraved:
If moral freedom is such a great good and a good that outweighs evils which it leads to, then why does God not possess it? Does that not imply that we are superior to God in some way

One possible theistic answer to this might be that, unlike us, there is no external moral standard to which God must conform.

Good is as God does. God has the freedom to take whatever action He desires; any action He does take is good by definition.

Of course, this raises significant issues regarding conflicts between God's possible actions and our intuitive sense of "good" (the infamous "Problem of Evil"). There are many, many theodicies that attempt to reconcile these conflicts with varying results (but none of them with complete success).

Regards,

Bill Snedden

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]

kwigibo · 01-11-2002, 06:22 AM

I'll be even less original but, perfect goodness would negate overall perfection insofar as it would limit a god's abilities. So yes, perfect goodness does imply a flawed god

Boro Nut · 01-14-2002, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Transworldly Depraved:
A Problem for God's Perfect Goodness.

Another problem (in England) is that the phrase "Perfect Goodness" is the sole property of the Hovis Bread Co, so God cannot use it without written permission. As he has failed to submit a personal request, all C-of-E texts have been amended to describe him as 'Nice'.

Similarly, he cannot be described as 'Farm Fresh' or 'Dolphin Friendly'.

Jane Marple · 01-18-2002, 10:24 AM

Sure, God is good himself... so... why did he killed millions of people during the Great Flood? Why did he chose only one people to be the Elected? Why does he let hundreds of innocent children die every day? Why doesn't he say something, do something to make this a better world?
Well, either he's a sadicist (because he's letting mankind destroy everything) or he doesn't exist (I vote for this one!)

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

01-10-2002, 04:38 PM	#1
Transworldly Depraved Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 172	A Problem for God's Perfect Goodness? Theists want to insist both that God is perfectly good (omnibenevolence) and that humans have freedom to choose between good and evil (moral freedom). God's perfect goodness seems to amount to the claim that necessarily God does no evil. Moral freedom is the power to choose between good and evil alternatives. If moral freedom requires the ability to choose other than we in fact choose and God's perfect goodness implies that God necessarily does that which is good, then God cannot be morally free. If moral freedom is such a great good and a good that outweighs evils which it leads to, then why does God not possess it? Does that not imply that we are superior to God in some way? This seems to be a difficulty for theistic belief.

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01-10-2002, 04:58 PM	#2
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	Perhaps. But isn't the freedom of moral choice that humans allegedly have only in place so we can choose to love God? To say that it would be a greater good for God to be able to freely choose to love himself rather than be forced to do so by his nature does not seem to me to be satisfactory. The knowledge of himself that he has combined with his nature seems to me to suggest that he would always choose to love himself, even if free to do otherwise. So, he may be free to not love himself but there would be no way to tell the difference. I think that Christians would argue that our ability to do evil stems directly from the freedom to choose to love God or not. Those that do not choose to love God truly will inevitiably cause evil.

01-10-2002, 05:13 PM	#3
chickensoupforthebowl Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 27	Wow, how original.

01-10-2002, 05:21 PM	#4
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	I think it is unlikely that we will come up with much that is original when pondering the existence or otherwise of God. After all, many of the world's greatest philosophers have devoted much time to the question. The only relevant point is whether it is original from the point of view of those who discuss it. A view you have never heard before is original to you...

01-10-2002, 08:45 PM	#5
Albert Cipriani Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,018	Well said David, The Catholic Church states it this way: The 1st Vatican Council taught: "God loves Himself necessarily." (Necessario amat seipsum.) St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica I 19, 1 ad 3: put it this way: "The object of the Divine Will is His own Goodness which is His essence." In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, the de fide belief is stated thusly: "The imperfection which belongs to created volition must not be ascribed to the notion of the Divine freedom. Therefore the Divine freedom is not libertas contrarietatis, that is, a freedom to choose between good and evil; for the possibility of willing evil is indeed a sign of freedom, but it is not of the essence of freedom, and signifies rather imperfection." -- Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

01-11-2002, 06:22 AM	#7
kwigibo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia Posts: 5,814	I'll be even less original but, perfect goodness would negate overall perfection insofar as it would limit a god's abilities. So yes, perfect goodness does imply a flawed god

01-18-2002, 10:24 AM	#9
Jane Marple Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Coimbra - Portugal Posts: 9	Sure, God is good himself... so... why did he killed millions of people during the Great Flood? Why did he chose only one people to be the Elected? Why does he let hundreds of innocent children die every day? Why doesn't he say something, do something to make this a better world? Well, either he's a sadicist (because he's letting mankind destroy everything) or he doesn't exist (I vote for this one!) <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

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