Vesica

Don't let me interrupt your argument...

I do not believe in ESP. This has nothing to do with any of my other beliefs. Except maybe the one about most people being blissfully unaware of most of what's going on around them so that any insight seems like ESP.....

OpenSeeker

I can't say I think ESP is a total hoax. I am xian, and i think that there might be demonic activity involved in such things, but on the other hand it could be natural. biblically the only clear message is not to mess with witchcraft, mediums, etc., which isnt specifically ESP, but part of the supernatural.

Bree

How, then, do you classify God? Is He not supernatural? Here's a working definition of the word:

Quote:

supernatural[list=1][*]Of or relating to existence outside the natural world. [*]Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.[*]Of or relating to a deity. [*]Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous. [*]Of or relating to the miraculous. [/list=1]

It sounds like God fits under this definition.

seebs

I am moderately agnostic on the question.

I've seen one thing I am not willing to dismiss out of hand:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

Everything else I've seen in the field has been utterly unconvincing.

My guess is that, if any such effects exist, they are very small in scope, but might well go some ways towards explaining the widespread prevelance of magical thinking. I don't really care much; it seems clear, from here, that they are *impractical*, whether or not they exist.

GeoTheo

Most evangelical Christians believe in the occult but think that it is bad and controlled by Satan.
That is my personal belief. Occultic practices such as mediumship are described clearly in the Bible and are anathema.
This position is different from the materialist point of view that all claims made on behalf of the occult are hoaxes. There are some conservative Christians that have a view similar to this. I think much of the occult such as psychic readings etc. is chicanery but I think some people do have occultic powers and that "myth buster" materialists don't adequately explain everything. I think they are a little to dogmatic in their materialism. I think an open minded person familiar with the occult would admit that some of the phenomena is genuine such as voodoo rituals where people impale themselves and don't bleed or suffer scarring.

Godot

Thanks all for the responses. They aren't generally different than those I've gotten from people I've asked directly. I was curious if that trend would be maintained in a global online forum. I normally ask a couple of other questions leading towards my contention (usually done to make myself feel clever), but I have no intention of doing so at this time. So I'll basically summarise it in a single question.
Here it is:
Given the general disapproval/disbelief associated with supernatural/preternatural/occult/clairvoyant/ {insert your term here} -type occurences, how can you reconcile your disbelief towards an acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah?
Remember that Jesus as Messiah was "proved" through the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. But what is prophecy if not preternatural?
I first asked this of a fundy friend, in a pedestrian attempt to deconvert her. It didn't work, but I did succees in getting to question her beliefs in a rational manner, rather than accepting things on blind faith.

GeoTheo

Materialists tend to lump everything "supernatural" all together.
To a Christian they are not all the same. You have God, and then Holy angels and demons, including Satan. Satan is believed to work through the occult. Christians don't think demons are bad because they are supernatural. We think they are bad because We believe them to be aligned against God. So I don't see your point. I don't see a contradiction on our part.
That's like saying because some one doesn't like the Yankees they must not like sports, so if they say they like the Red socks they are contradicting themselves.

emotional

"Little too dogmatic" in their materialism? HAHAHAHAHA!

Godot

The analogy is where you go wrong, GT. To be valid, it should be more like "Do you like baseball, yes or no? If you say no, then you can't tell me that you like the BoSox best." If you look at my original query, I was asking for a macro viewpoint. To tell me you accept this one and not that one likens equivocation. Perhaps I was disingenuous, and for that I do apologise. It was something I came up with to confuse a friend, and wanted to see how it went around here.
As for your contention that satan works through the occult, by whose decree is an activity declared "occult"? Doesn't divination fall in there somewhere (especially as applied to witches)? How are their abilities to be properly distinguished from the non-occult supernatural? It's more a classification of the practitioner than it is the practice in question.

Biff the unclean

The Munchkins want to know if you are a good witch or a wicked witch.