Jamie_L

Assuming God values Free Will (big assumption):

A hands-off approach to free-agent humans seems like it will not be the best model for achieving maximal free will.

Let's take the analogy of personal liberty as it relates to the powers of government. One could argue that the only way for everyone to be truely free is for there to be no government - i.e. everyone can do whatever they want.

In practice, however, we see that this situation does not bring about the largest amount of freedom. With no governance, the strong can dominate the weak, and the result may be only a few people with true freedom, while everyone else is powerless to exercise the freedoms they supposedly have.

Free Will seems to work the same way. With no divine intervention, Free Will can devolve to a handful of people causing mass suffering. Suffering that interferes with the Free Will of larger numbers of people. Wars, terrorist attacks, widespread crime, all lead to the curtailing or snuffing out of free choice by others.

Could it not be argued that by applying "reasonable restriction" to Free Will in some situations, God could create a world in which more people got to exercise their Free Will? Over the life of the universe, wouldn't God want to maximize the total Free Will of all humans who ever existed? If God does not intervene in situations where one person's free will interferes with the free will of thousands, isn't God making a choice to allow that net reduction in total free will?

Jamie

spurly

Jamie,

I understand what you are saying, and that is why I think the gift of free will is one of the most risky things and most loving things God ever granted to us.

He knew that there would be some people who would abuse the free will he gave them. He knew that when that happened, his heart would be broken - yet he took that risk anyway.

Free will is a dangerous thing when it is not coupled with self-control and Spirit-control.

Kevin

Jabu Khan

Where does god grant us free will? It was a concept carried over by celtic druids who were converted that was not accepted until well after their persecution. Jamie makes a good point how can you truly have free will if the choices are not even properly explained to you. If the "holy spirit" is suppossed to guide you then why is it so hard for even the deepest of believers to agree on anything that god has said?

Jamie_L

Then why didn't God create all humans with adequate self-control and spirit-control?

Jamie

spurly

Then would we really have free will? It seems that most of the arguments against free will would end up taking that free will away from us that God has given us.

Kevin

Darth Dane

Let's take the analogy of personal liberty as it relates to the powers of government. One could argue that the only way for everyone to be truely free is for there to be no government - i.e. everyone can do whatever they want.

Yes, everyone would have to follow the same unwritten law, of goodwill towards others.

In practice, however, we see that this situation does not bring about the largest amount of freedom. With no governance, the strong can dominate the weak, and the result may be only a few people with true freedom, while everyone else is powerless to exercise the freedoms they supposedly have.

The strong, is like the devil, they do not wish to bow to "God" and the simple command it is to Love thy neighbor as you Love yourself. The devil is also allowed to do as the devil wishes. God 's Love is so great that if those in power abuse it because they choose to, then God will turn his cheek even if it against God's will. God will rearrange then whole of creation, and does so all the time, so that "ask and you shall be given" can be fullfilled.


.. isn't God making a choice to allow that net reduction in total free will?

God isn't doing the choice, humans are, and if one strong have a greater will to influence others, then God still folows "ask and you shall be given" Those in power, should use that power for the good of others.

"For those who have a lot, shall receive little, and those who have little shall receive a lot"

He knew that there would be some people who would abuse the free will he gave them. He knew that when that happened, his heart would be broken - yet he took that risk anyway.

For the sake of those who does good, God wanted freewill to all. "all is created equal in the eye of God"



Then why didn't God create all humans with adequate self-control and spirit-control?

Who said God didn't? But if you choose differently, based on how you were brought up, and where you were brought up, then so be it.
Can you choose different from your previous choices, or do you willingly play along your same rules, as you always have?

Do you wnat self-control? "ask and you shall be given"



DD - Love Spliff

Jinto

Huh? How does doing whatever they want translate to following an unwritten law?

And that's just the point. If God values free will so much, then he shouldn't allow the idiot over there to interfere with the free will of the 270 million people over here. To give people free will, and then not ensure that that state actually obtains allows worse tyrrany than a well placed lightning bolt now and then, for those who gain and then abuse power.

You don't get it. A human is. The people who that human tries to rule over are not. These people ask constantly, but they are most assuredly not given freedom from their opressors. To allow this state to continue is to say that the free will of one person is more deserving of God's respect than the free will of the many.

Then why is it that right now, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer?

And yet, somehow, He can't keep it that way.

I can easily choose different from my previous choices. Unfortunately, that state is not true of everyone, and there are people who are physically incapable of choosing differently without external intervention. God made these people... why?

I already have self-control. I do however, have a need for evidence of God's existence. I have asked for this evidence on numerous occasions. I have so far not recieved so much as one SUBJECTIVE experience to indicate God, let alone the OBJECTIVE evidence I keep asking for. Clearly, "ask and you shall be given" isn't happening.

Darth Dane

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Yes, everyone would have to follow the same unwritten law, of goodwill towards others
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Huh? How does doing whatever they want translate to following an unwritten law?

How can everybody else do what they want? If I kill someone, can they then do what they want?


And that's just the point. If God values free will so much, then he shouldn't allow the idiot over there to interfere with the free will of the 270 million people over here. To give people free will, and then not ensure that that state actually obtains allows worse tyrrany than a well placed lightning bolt now and then, for those who gain and then abuse power.

Maybe, we as the people, should get a different government, or someone else to lead the country?
What can God do if not enough people rise up and say "enough"
Look at the latest election i the Us. We have half of teh country saying Bush while another says Gore. The will of the most people, will get their way. Because more people wanted Bush than Gore, itr became Bush. "ask and you shall be given"


You don't get it. A human is. The people who that human tries to rule over are not. These people ask constantly, but they are most assuredly not given freedom from their opressors. To allow this state to continue is to say that the free will of one person is more deserving of God's respect than the free will of the many.

No, all are equal in the eye of God, if we are to believe scripture.
So as long as people, don't want the same change God wont give it. We have to ask at teh same time, so to say.
If you have a Gun(power) you can make people do your bidding, until some are ready to say no, and die for it. Look at India, how many people sacrificed their Life so that the rest could be free. When the English saw this non-violence, they were apalled(sp?) and gave up. Maybe, if you are willing to die, not kill, for your ideal are you ready to ask for change?

Maybe?


Then why is it that right now, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer?

The rich enjoys bigger freewill right now, and teh poor less rigt now. When all is equally free, those who had alot(more freewill) will receive little(freewill), and teh poor will receive alot(freewill)

Maybe?


And yet, somehow, He can't keep it that way.

Why?

I can easily choose different from my previous choices. Unfortunately, that state is not true of everyone, and there are people who are physically incapable of choosing differently without external intervention. God made these people... why?

No, would you like to give these people that choice? You may need to sacifice your own for this to happen.

I dunno why, some have said it is just the rythm of God. Like inhaling and exhaling, can't have one without the other.


I already have self-control. I do however, have a need for evidence of God's existence. I have asked for this evidence on numerous occasions. I have so far not recieved so much as one SUBJECTIVE experience to indicate God, let alone the OBJECTIVE evidence I keep asking for. Clearly, "ask and you shall be given" isn't happening.

If you want to receive knowledge you must keep an open mind.

When you give what God asks of you, God will give what you ask of God.

Maybe?




DD - Love Spliff

Amaranth

Hold it - Assuming for a moment that God did create humans, then it has already limited our free will in numerous fashions. He has removed free will from control of my heart beat and digestive systems. Perhaps more functionally, he has removed my free will to register or ignore sensory input, enforcing a stricture that it shall all be accepted regardless of my desire. Is there someone here who wouldn't like to be able to turn off pain? I have no control over various chemicals, and once released I have no control on the effects those chemicals have on me. My free will is further limited by the insticts I have been burdened with - An inherent desire to survive, a need for social contact, et cetera.

I'd say that God already did quite a fine job on limiting my free will.

Dropping the assumption of god, let's look at where this is heading: Without defining free will in the least, or even proving its existance (a hotly debated philisophical subject), we are just gearing up for a "No true Scotsman" argument. I have presently defined free will as total control of my body, my desires, and my feelings - This will no doubt be contested as not free will.

Now if only I was intelligent enough to have realized that before I typed the first paragraph...

Amaranth

Darth Dane

Hold it - Assuming for a moment that God did create humans, then it has already limited our free will in numerous fashions. He has removed free will from control of my heart beat and digestive systems. Perhaps more functionally, he has removed my free will to register or ignore sensory input, enforcing a stricture that it shall all be accepted regardless of my desire. Is there someone here who wouldn't like to be able to turn off pain? I have no control over various chemicals, and once released I have no control on the effects those chemicals have on me. My free will is further limited by the insticts I have been burdened with - An inherent desire to survive, a need for social contact, et cetera.

Yes, but we can see that we can go against ourselves. Stopping peeing for a while, rasinig the heartbeat(via excersise)

I have presently defined free will as total control of my body, my desires, and my feelings - This will no doubt be contested as not free will.

The Yogi's claim that you can acheive full bodily control. So that you can stop your heart beat, float, manifest material things see auras and many other things.
Do we believe them, or should we try to see if their reality is true or not! Should we dismiss it on teh basis of our books, or should we do as yogi's do to achieve it.
Some Yogi's say that a gram of pratice is worth a ton of theory.

Talk all you want about bicycling, if you don't get on a bike you won't know what it feel to be riding.




DD - Love Spliff