niggle

I continually hear from Christians that without God there would be no justification for morality. However, I never hear exactly how God creates this morality.

God is almighty therefore he is all righteous? If so, this is nothing more than a modified "might makes right" philosophy. Christians usually don't speak positively of that philosophy unless we're talking about economics.

God is wise therefore he knows what's moral? If so, then all I need to do is accumulate wisdom and I'll gain morality. God becomes an unnecessary middleman.

Any other theories on how God could possibly create morality.

winstonjen

Short answer - he doesn't. Those who invent 'god' do so to claim that their morality is the one to follow.

VivaHedone

Socrates (I think!) springs to mind: Is something right because God says it is or does God say that something is right because it is?

Ad Astra

The answer I tend to get is: "God is morally perfect, so he knows what's best." In its most basic form, that amounts to: "Uh...because, that's why!"

Division By Zero

On thinking about this topic, I realized it makes even less sense than I previously thought- not what you wrote, but what Christians think.

Most Christians (though I've never heard of one who disagrees) say that morality had to come from God- humans couldn't have devised it on their own. But if that's so, then where did God's morals come from? Is there another God who gave it to him, or does he just have it? If God's mind is capable of morality without it being given to him by a more powerful entity, then why can't the human mind do the same? It appears to be infinite regression, analogous to "The universe needs a creator, God is that creator, and God just exists."

niggle

I kinda knew that already. It's amazing how a Christain's sense of morality says more about them than anything else.

Even if God existed or if God somehow justified morality, God certainly didn't leave any clear signs on what is moral. The Bible is nothing more than a moral inkblot test for those who believe. From reading the Bible I don't know if I'm suppose to love my neighbor or smite them.

winstonjen

Why, smite them out of love, of course! Surely that's what they did in the Inquisitions!

Wiploc

They have four moves:

1. The might-makes-right move you have already mentioned. (This fails because it isn't an actual morality. The Jews could recognize Hitler's superior power without being morally obliged to follow his orders.)

2. Dental goodness: Like a dentist, god is only hurting us for our own benefit. (This only works if god is less-than-omnipotent.)

3. Magical morality: It's like magic, you know? If he's all-powerful, he can do anything, including create a morality. (Unfortunately for this theory, it doesn't provide a reason to go along with god's magical morality. If this is the justification for morality, there isn't anything better about being moral than being immoral, which is exactly the position that Christians always attack.)

4. Secret morality: Okay, admittedly god looks bad to us, but if we knew as much as he does, we would see that he is really good. (This is self-contradictory. If all we know is that he looks bad, we should believe he is bad. If we know enough to know that he isn't really bad, then he doesn't look bad.)

I know I said there were four moves, but I'm going to include a fifth that I keep running across. I wasn't going to include it because it doesn't make sense --- but the others don't make sense either.

5. The Conflation/Implosion move: They try to conflate the god-is-good-because-he-is-moral move with the morality-is-good-because-god-says-so move. They figure if they do both at once your brain will implode so they can act triumphant while you stand speechless. (This works pretty well, as a debating tactic. I'd love to have a slam-dunk comeback.)

That's all the ways of justifying divine morality that I've run across. Since none of them work, the Christian tactic is to dance from one to another, trying to stay ahead of the refutations.

crc

niggle

Are there any Christians who wish to respond? I think I've asked a legitmate question and I think it needs answering if Christianity is going to have any credibility at all.

paul30

I got into an internet disagreement over this very point with a Christian.

I asked how God could command genocide (as he is said to do in the Book of Joshua) and still be good.

My adversary said that genocide in the service of God's goals is OK.

I said: Well, then I guess Hitler's Holocaust was OK, since according to Hitler it would serve the master race.

No, no, my opponent said.

This back-and-forth went on.

It's simply a variant of the theodicy problem: How can a good God create evil or a world where evil exists?

My Christian friend said that evil doesn't come from God but from human choice.

Clearly this is not entirely true, however. Smallpox never came from human choice (except in the arsenals of the U.S. military).

My friend answers that we do not have the whole picture, and God does.

My only response to this is: then God is evil. This is the view of the Eastern religions, but does not square with the religions of the West.