free12thinker

You Said:
Being alive is a blessing - better than not
existing. Only chance for eternal life, imo.
My Reply:
This is an opinion. Things are a blessing or a curse, depending on what peoples desires are.

You Said:
All I know is that He did make it this way. He could have made it many ways, and even decided not to create it. Speculating on what could be is as silly to me as my beliefs are to you.
My Reply:
When theists answer "All I know is...", it speaks volumes about what they really don't know. And what they don't care to know. And what we never have known about god and all of his "mystery".

You Said:
Not sure I agree or disagree with you on this. I just dont know. Everyone has the chance to experience joy, however.
My Reply:
Everyone has the chance to experience joy? Who brings about such chances? Ask those who are in Africa, at the age of 3, lying on their death bed because they're diseased and haven't eaten in three days. Do they have a chance? Be realistic about your interpretations on life.

You Said: There are tremendous evils in the world, all of which go against the Christian faith
(which in part is responsible for my faith). Plus, there is inherent suffering above and beyond "man-made" evils.
My Reply:
The second you note that your faith is partly based on the tremendous evils that go against the Christian faith, is the second that I sigh in sorrow for your lack of self-seeking beliefs.

You Said:
In theory, the evils you listed would not exist if we were all strong followers of Christ.
My Reply:
Why wouldn't they exist if we were all followers of Christ? Is it because he does in fact create these evils to thwart our sins? Ah, I'll log it in my notebook, as soon as I'm done promoting women in the workplace, befriending homosexuals and taking part in other victimless sins that have no place in our list of "immoral activities".

RJS

I was specifically referring to murder, slavery and rape in the earlier post. Of course, many others exist. This thread appears to be discussing some of the more egregious, horrific examples.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

doc58

RJS,
I cannot conceive of a God who would make children and then torture most of them not only in this life but then in an unending way for all eternity. I am not saying God as you conceive him wouldn't have the right to do whatever he wished, but it is exceedingly unkind and cruel and also contradictory to his statement to be all-loving.

Do you know who Anne Frank is? The kind, courageous Jewish girl who hid from the nazis and then died in a concentration camp. How do feel that this wonderful girl who believed in God but not Jesus is(according to your beliefs) enduring
her 60th(approx)year of uneneding unimaginable torture? Imagine her in your kitchen, in your oven at 400 degrees screaming 24 hours a day.
and you believe God sees this and at the same time is perfectly eternally satisfied and happy.
Do you really believe a God like this exists?

I hope you stay around. I think you will be surprised. I was a committed , bible believing Christain for 40+ years, an elder and teacher, fully understanding the gospel and believing and living it wholeheartedly. Ex-preacher, who started this thread, was also. Realizing that the Bible is not inerrant and not the Word of God and that Christianity is not based on truth was a hard bitter pill only very reluctantly swallowed.
We know the Bible very well. Feel free to challenge us and be challenged. There is not much that I have not agonized over.

brighid

Why is it that you believe this Creator that birthed the world is a HE? Why not a she, it or they? Despite the fact that I am always in awe of the vast wonders of this world and the universe I find no Creator Being within the mountains, the trees, the flowers, in a black hole, a nebula, or any other event of being that exists. I certainly don’t see the Christian God being the giver of life.

If you have been lurking around here you should be full well aware that the vast majority of atheists in this forum have been Christian, know the Bible better than even the most devout followers, who earnestly and fervently searched, believed and loved your God and over months, years and decades honestly and painfully concluded that the evidence for this SPECIFC concept of a God is sorely, sorely lacking credible evidence or the moral foundation that a responsible, rational, compassionate person should EVER build their world view or moral standards upon.

Your post reeks of the arrogance and misnomers all too many theists seem to project upon the world and the non-believer. We aren’t stubbornly rebelling against what we “know” exists for childish and petty reasons simply because we don’t WANT to believe in your God (or anyone else’s.) We aren’t petulant, little children throwing temper tantrums in a selfish attempt to get our way and ignore what is “obvious” to those who “believe.” We have believed, we have believed with every fiber of our beings and for a myriad of reasons, most specifically the deafening screams of our consciences and the thumping of our intellectual integrity we could no longer BELIEVE, even if we were tortured. So, if there is such a thing as a spirit (and I call this inner stirring the conscience) and it demands that we acknowledge it and with those demands we exhaustively search for what you claim, and what we sincerely want to believe is real, but we cannot ignore what we have found in order to lead a comfortable existence and live as if clouded in ignorant bliss – what should we do? Ignore it all? In most cases it is physically impossible for us to do so (at least for myself) because in denying who and what we are we abuse the intellectual and moral integrity that we hold very, very dear.

If indeed there is a Creator of this universe, and he also created mankind to occupy a miniscule speck of its vastness it seems utterly ridiculous that such a being desires our worship. Especially the worship of such “imperfect” beings when He/She/It/They could easily end this silly experiment and start all over again on this planet or one any of the billions that exist in the known (and unknown) Universe.

If your God knows the hearts and minds of men and we are unable to hide from his all knowingness then He/She/It/They will know the truth in our hearts. This God(s) will know the ardent trials and tribulations each of us has endured along the path that now brings us to atheism. This God(s) will know our moral fiber, our intellectual integrity and the contents and actions of our consciences. If you God can know ALL of this and deny us based on one “disqualifier” – the belief in Him, even if it is falsely held, coerced or manipulated then your God is unworthy of worship. If your God desires men, women and children amongst his flock that do not have the courage to question, to challenge, to seek and to deeply reflect upon what man tells them about God and honestly come to the best possible conclusions available to them through the knowledge only He/She/It/They are capable of disseminating (and therefore willfully withholding) then this is no God(s) I shall ever pay my allegiance to. Nor can I understand how people could view this God as worthy of worship?

You are likely comfortable with your platitudes, with believing rather than knowing and who are we to say that you do not have a right to such comforts? However, you do not have the right to question our individual realities based upon prejudicial assumptions and a priori guesses that are not factual and are only a part of your mental repertoire because your culture has indoctrinated you in favor of this specific version of God (the Christian one.)

I know that I do not want people to love me out of fear, nor do I want any one to love me because they feel obligated to do so, guilty or have been deceived about my true character and therefore do not truly love ME. I want honest love, freely given without fear of reparation, but only because it is true. I would rather not have the love of any being that is founded upon dishonesty, coercion, or any other reason that does not bring that love as a gift. I do not give my love with the expectation of receiving it back. I give it freely to those of my choosing. But I am not a God – although some may say a Goddess and something more powerful, loving and compassionate than I cannot logically possess less compassion, love or understanding than Its imperfect creation. Your God has willfully committed crimes that I could not bring myself to commit, even under threat of death and torture. I cannot affiliate myself with such a being and I cannot call myself amongst His minions.

I cannot be a part of anything that sets me apart from my fellow human beings because of the color of their skin, the ethnic background, their gender, sexual orientation, creed, religious upbringing, handicap, or otherwise. To be affiliated with Christianity (and most religions) requires that I ignore all that I hold dear and I cannot ignore that. I will not hate or condemn someone because they aren’t a “true” Christian, a homosexual, a woman, a Muslim, Jew, Hindu etc and even though some of the tenants of Christianity are similar or identical to my own moral system there are too many that strongly conflict with it. I cannot honestly believe that a loving God would do or say most of the things contained in the Bible.

If your heaven will not contain people because they did not believe then I do not want to be a part of that heaven. Keep it. That kind of heaven is no paradise at all, but rather a living hell. If that kind of idea comforts you then I pity you. Don’t pray for us, rather think for yourself and hopefully someday you will find a moral back bone and have the fortitude enough to stand up to the idea of a God that is cruel, violent, murderous, evil, arbitrary, rude and unconscionable for He tells you these things are done to the world out of LOVE. This is NOT love, this is abuse and you can keep it.

Brighid

RJS

doc58

thanks. again, thats why I'm here. To test a few things with the experts, so to speak

Philosoft

<strong> Does eternal life really sound like such a great idea to you? I suspect you may not have thought that through.

<strong> So basically, there's no situation which wouldn't be an obvious manifestation of a creator? As long as you're allowed to ad hoc your god-explanation, it'll always be compatible with whatever you observe.

<strong> God is a capitalist? Who knew?

<strong> Would that be the One True Christian Faith(tm)?

<strong> Odd that this type of evil should even exist.

<strong> What theory would this be? The implication is that all those who are currently "strong followers of Christ" (whatever that means) don't do evil things to each other. Are you really going to try to support this position? And what, exactly, would these "strong followers" have to believe in order for them to qualify?

RJS

All are sinners, including Christians. My point was intended to communicate that if the entire world population was a perfect follower of Christ, none of such evils would exist - something to strive for. And then I made the comment that because the life of Christ and His teachings are consistent with what is logical and moral to me, it is part of why I believe.

sidewinder

I've always questioned why Christians throughout history have had to resort to their scholars and theologians to answer questions which go unanswered by their god. If the Bible is the revelation of the god of the universe, why not answer all these questions in his revelation to mankind? It would save time and money, and probably would've helped prevent many wars and conflicts between people. Why should we believe the answer of some scholar or theologian, especially when there are disagreements among these scholars and theologians. Whose answer is the right one? How do you know?

I ask these questions because the "Problem of Evil" is a difficult problem for theists, IMHO. Ok, if I accept that some amount of evil is necessary in the world, I would still ask why the large amount of apparent meaningless suffering and evil? Couldn't your god have created a world where there is much less suffering? Thousands and thousands of people are dying in Africa from AIDS and leave kids without parents. Natural disasters strike all over the world and leave people in misery. There are numerous diseases that mankind is subject to. Etc. I could list many more but it's been done before.

Sci_Fidelity

Wasn't that the point of the crusades...? I dare you to take that philosophy and preach it to the muslims clerics in Iran.

RJS

You missed the point, I think. I didn't suggest that in the current (or past) state of the world, that such a conversion was possible or probable, it was a hypothetical that said "if".