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Old 07-10-2003, 05:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: Anyone believe in Karma?

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Originally posted by Carrie
Do any of you think there is such a thing, that if you do good or bad, then good or bad will come back to you?
The following isn't 'karma' that I'm aware of but the nature of human relationship dynamics is that people you treat well are more likely to treat you well in turn and people you treat backly are more likely to treat you badly in turn.

That's a way that what you give comes back to you, which is easily verified.

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Old 07-10-2003, 07:08 AM   #22
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I would like to believe in karma.

If I were to become a supernaturalist, this is where I would start. Karma, as a supernatural concept, would be a great thing. A good basis for a supernatural universe.

Unfortunately, like most supernatural explanations for the universe, Karma conflicts with reality. Too bad.

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Old 07-10-2003, 08:08 AM   #23
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You have not shown, that QM or science can solve injustice.
Uhh...huh? When have I bothered to show that? Why in the world would I try?

My assertion - Classic causality is bunk.

Your assertion(s) - There is a "Universal Principle of Justice." QM *must* include this principle, otherwise 50% of the "real world" is left out. The universe is an ordered place.


You claim that QM is bunk for some very odd reasons. Perhaps you would like to get around to defending those reasons, instead of just asserting them. I'm *especially* interested in the "Universal Principle of Justice." Care to start there?
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Old 07-10-2003, 08:20 AM   #24
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Default Karma

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Originally posted by Amaranth
Care to start there?
No. The theme is Karma, not QM. Thank You.
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Old 07-10-2003, 08:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamie_L
I would like to believe in karma.

If I were to become a supernaturalist, this is where I would start. Karma, as a supernatural concept, would be a great thing. A good basis for a supernatural universe.
Actually, karma (at least in the Buddhist version that I believe) is not a supernatural concept. The Buddha said "It is intention, O monks, that I call karma. Having willed, one acts through body, speech, or mind." It's not meant as some force acting external to your mind. If you repeatedly act with an intention to be kind, you become kinder. This predisposes you to act kindly in the future. Being argumentative and insulting will also predispose you to act that way in your future.

A Theravadin monk, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, puts it like this:
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So, instead of promoting resigned powerlessness, the early Buddhist notion of karma focused on the liberating potential of what the mind is doing with every moment. Who you are -- what you come from -- is not anywhere near as important as the mind's motives for what it is doing right now.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/m...aro/karma.html
Yeah, maybe if you look in the world, you can find examples of nasty people having great lives and good people struggling, but you're misapplying the theory of karma. It's not meant as a drop-in replacement for the Abrahamic belief in divine judgment. It's a tool for improving your own mental ecology, for taking resposibility for your own mental state.

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Old 07-10-2003, 09:44 AM   #26
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Originally posted by MzNeko
I kind of like the time a guy tried to car-jack a minivan at a gas station. Turns out there was a martial arts competition team inside... he got the living crap kicked out of him.
As opposed to the guy a few weeks ago who tried to hi-jack my minivan, which only had 3 kids in it at the time... luckily, he realized, and ran, not drove, away.

But if karma/universal justice were real, wouldn't EVERYONE who tried to hijack a minivan get the shit kicked out of him every time? Otherwise, it tends to look more like a random event.
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Old 07-10-2003, 10:07 AM   #27
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lugotorix:

Thanks for the education, and actually, that makes a lot of sense, and is something I've held to be true for a while.

I always assumed the mainstream Western use of the word Karma was the supernatural one (that's what people told me it meant). Have I been misinformed, or do most of the people who talk about Karma mean it in the (incorrect) sense that I always have?

Jamie
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Old 07-10-2003, 10:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamie_L
lugotorix:

Thanks for the education, and actually, that makes a lot of sense, and is something I've held to be true for a while.

I always assumed the mainstream Western use of the word Karma was the supernatural one (that's what people told me it meant). Have I been misinformed, or do most of the people who talk about Karma mean it in the (incorrect) sense that I always have?
It's hard to say. Even in ancient India there were conflicting theories about karma, most of which did involve supernatural elements. When the idea came west, all the different versions got jumbled up. I know that among my new-ager friends, karma is concieved of in the way you described it, or as a type of predestination. The alternative I presented is more of a modern Buddhist approach. For me it makes more sense.

That being said, even among western Buddhists, I know of quite a few that take a more supernatural, many-lives view of karma. It's not strictly necessary, though.

lugotorix
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Old 07-10-2003, 12:59 PM   #29
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No. The theme is Karma, not QM. Thank You.
QM is perfectly relevent when you base your assertions about the existance of karma off of faulty science. You're going to have to dodge a bit more artfully than that, I fear.

So, again, how does that Universal Principle of Justice work, and why does it disqualify QM?
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Old 07-10-2003, 01:28 PM   #30
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I don't believe in anything spiritual.
Well except maybe a shot of rum every now and then!
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