Doubting Didymus

Ah, but what is the question? Is it: The scientific explanation for the diversity of life on earth is common descent, true or false? Or is it: It is my truthfull and forthright belief that evolution is the truth, true or false?

I think I have pointed out that there are a number of factors to consider when you are demanding that a student tell you what they believe. This is science, so beliefs should be completely ignored as a matter of process.

As I have said, there is a difference between factual matters and matters of belief and opinion. If the question was: do you truthfully and forthrightly believe in the krebs cycle, I would have to honestly answer: 'No, I do not allow any beliefs to affect my scientific knowledge.'

Let me ask you, using any sensible definition of the word 'belief', do you believe in the krebs cycle? If so, how do your beliefs admit the possibility that the krebs cycle is actually wrong, as it would be proper for a scientist to do?

Doubting Didymus

Quite, but can you see this situation ever occuring? No, this would never happen. However, there are people who think that demons can cause illness. They are called traditional catholics and they become medical practitioners all the time, without ever having to make any statements of belief in this or that at all. Would they get a letter of reccomendation? Yes, If they were good enough at their biological science. This is because in most cases, people are not required to give a run-down of what they believe in order to advance their careers.

Would someone who rejects the germ theory of disease get through Dr Dini's screening process? If they are good at biology and accept evolution, yes, they are clear. Yet their beliefs are just as absurd.

My primary concern is that Dini might be turning away talented students based on information he would not normally be privy to. If I were to ask him for a letter of reccomendation, I would like to think he can make up his mind about me BEFORE he knows what I believe.

pz

Now you're reduced to play games with the word "belief". That is not an issue. You've been hoodwinked by an article with a creationist bias.

This is what Dini's page says:
"If you set up an appointment to discuss the writing of a letter of recommendation, I will ask you: 'How do you think the human species originated?' If you cannot truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation for admittance to further education in the biomedical sciences."

The article lies. Dini is not asking for anything like a "loyalty oath" to evolutionary belief. He's asking for a scientific answer to a scientific question.

And yes, the only legitimate scientific answer to the question above will involve the theory of evolution. A student who replies with a story about a magic kingdom inhabited by vegetarian tyrannosaurs and talking snakes is an incompetent boob. Similarly, if a student were asked a straightforward question about the Krebs cycle and he replied with a waffling answer about how biochemistry might be false, or tried to justify some bizarre superstition that ATP production is carried out by angels, I'd be justified in judging his biology education to have been a failure.

Valentine Pontifex

I am with Doubting Didymus on this one, the professor's policy here is misguided and is only helping the creationist cause.

If the student is a creationist due to incompetence (which is of course very likely) than it should show even without asking the question. If it does not, the prof probably does not know the student well enough to be giving out his recomendation anyways.

And yes I agree that no one has the right to demand a recomendation, but that does not justify arbitrary rules setup in advance. This forum routinely condemns the creationists for doing the same with their statements of belief that they require people to sign to. What this professor is doing the exact same thing. That creationists statement is false and his is true does not change this. Forcing people to agree with statements as condition of further advancement is just plain obscene even if we know that statement to be true.

And frankly I am afraid of a slippery slope here. First it is applied to what has been obviously true for a century and a half but eventually it becomes agreeing with a professor's pet ideas. Given human nature this is not so unlikely. In any event this professor is turning good science into a dogma enforced by his fiat. Evolution does not need this kind of protection since it is true. Creationists do this because it is the only way they can survive and anti-creationists should not stoop to their level.

And the ironic thing is that this professor is helping guarentee evolution denial's place in public schools by making a very good example for the creationist case that they are unfairly locked out. This kind of help is something we can do without.

pz

There's that word again: "unfairly". Science is not a matter of fairness. An understanding of the basic ideas of evolution is fundamental to competence in biology. It is not some "pet idea"; and of course, even if it were, the professor has every right to impose whatever conditions he wants on any request to get a recommendation.

I do not think biologists should ever concede on a scientific issue because some creationist ignoramus whines that it is unfair.

RufusAtticus

If a (special) creationist asked me for a recomendation to med school or some sort of scientific graduate program, I'd probably tell them that I couldn't give them a good recomendation because it would probably go something like this:

Ability to memorize subject material: Excellent
Ability to understand subject material: Mediocure
Ability to evalute evidence and draw reasonable conclusions: Poor
Desire to learn science: Poor

I'm sorry, but any student who prefers to learn biology from the pulpet and not biologists, wont get my recomendation.

Albion

I assume this professor wasn't the only person who could have given this lettter; most biology departments have mor ethan one professor. So it looks as if the student knew about the prof's requirement and decided to get bloody-minded about it, knowing that the local media would be in strong support.

On the other hand, a professor in the Bible Belt is asking for trouble by demanding that any of his students believe (does his website really say "believe"?) in evolution; that wording does seem to set evolution up as the belief system they miust hold, which is asking for a clash with other belief systems. If he was looking for a fight, he's got what he wanted.

pz

Ditto.

And if such a student wants to whine that he needs such a letter, I would be happy to give him an honest one. I'm afraid it wouldn't help him get into medical school.

RufusAtticus

Any body notice the final statement.

It wouldn't suprise me if the prof's requirements had nothing to do with Junior leaving Texas Tech. (There are other people that could have recomended him.) I think it was just an excuse to get into LCU.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

Albion

OK, well, here's the actual wording from his website. That's a bit different from presenting it as a clashing belief system.

"If you set up an appointment to discuss the writing of a letter of recommendation, I will ask you: "How do you think the human species originated?" If you cannot truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation for admittance to further education in the biomedical sciences."