the_cave

Uh, it was intended as a bit of self-derogatory humor, in order to dissuade anyone that I was showing off, or deliberately using big words (which have been criticized elsewhere on this board.) Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Ensign Steve

Cave, I owe you the apology. I was the one who was not clear. I usually try not to post unless my post adds value to the thread, so little one-liners like that are rare for me. I meant it completely facetiously, yet I made no effort to convey that through the use of smilies. It really is a good word, and I don't think I could have spelled it without looking it up first.

Silent Acorns

It sould also be emphasized that many Christians claim that the "good parts" (not that they'd use that phrase) ARE original to Jesus. They regularly claim that the "revolutionary philosophy of Jesus" is the ONLY reason that we have such things as democracy and human rights today, and that this is "evidence" of Jesus' divinity.

Ensign Steve

Agreed. This is also the reason they feel they can claim that we are a "Christian Nation" or that our nation was founded on "Christian Principles." (I'm referring to the USA).

Jen

Mad Kally

Millieu therapy is also something used in mental wards. The therapeutic community. ^--- note big words..

VivaHedone

Much of Jesus' philosophy depends on the acceptance of god. For instance, the unconditional forgiveness bit. Jesus says things like, 'Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.' The message is clearly along the lines of 'accept the wrongs done to you on Earth'. (It also forbids any law enforcement system, a point I made in a long-forgotten 'Religion is Anarchy' thread.) However, this only works on the basis that wrongdoers will be punished by God in a later life - any material inconvenience caused to you is irrelevant, as only the afterlife matters. Take away this Ultimate Justice, and this philosophy is groundless, as it becomes clear that we have to impose our own, albeit imperfect, justice upon the world. We have to fight for our freedom and rights on Earth, as this is all we have. Otherwise honest people ultimately end up unhappier than dishonest ones.

A similar situation arises with the denial of physical pleasure preached by Jesus - 'The acts of sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery... drunkenness, orgies and the like'. There is never any justification for this portrayal of pleasure as dirty and impure. It only works if you accept that by denying yourself pleasure on Earth, you will attain higher pleasure in Heaven. Take away the God part, and this self-denial becomes inexcusable - it becomes clear that this life is all we have, and we should appreciate and savour every minute of it. To do otherwise is, in the words of Victor Hugo (although he was strongly religious, and disagreed with these words expressed by one of his characters in Les Miserables), 'to sacrifice the substance for the shadow'.

What a tremendous waste of life religion has resulted in - I believe that the shame and taboo surrounding physical pleasure, especially sex, is a horrendous crime against humanity inflicted upon us by religion and its baseless philosophy. A utilitarian philosophy based upon logic and common sense would serve us a lot better than religion.

Ensign Steve

I don't think I have ever read a better argument in favor or drunken orgies! Seriously, very well said! I have a new entry for my mental list of problems caused by belief in an afterlife.

CALDONIA

The philosophy of anyone who would curse a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season has to be held in question.

the_cave

So why not just be dishonest? Seriously, I'm interested. This might require a different thread, but I'm curious--do most atheists think that their ethics (which they've certainly illustrated they have!) are just pragmatic, for their own benefit (and it so happens they work out for everyone)? Or do they think there are deeper reasons for behaving ethically, honoring honesty, justice, that sort of thing? I'm just wondering, thanks.

Ok, WAIT a minute! You do in fact seem to be suggesting that logic and common sense will lead us to a life of savoring, well, "drunkenness, orgies, and the like". You really think this? If you don't, then why do you suggest that "this self-denial is inexcusable"? Hey, here's an effectively pagan atheist who believed that overindulgence in physical pleasure was wrong: Aristotle. I mean come on, you don't think, speaking as a reasoning citizen, there are actual, just crimes which we could label "immoral"? Or that misbehavior can ever cause harm? I'm not defending the verse you quoted word-for-word, and I'm definitely not being a prude at all--but I have to assume you support at least some of its flavor as a rational, moral being...For example, enjoying a drink is one thing. Enjoying it to excess is another (and I don't see why such excesses could be exactly what Jesus was talking about...) All I'm saying is reason doesn't necessarily entail hedonism. Surely you're not saying this either--in which case I'm not sure what your critique is.

the_cave

Sure, some of it--but I don't believe all of it. Besides, some tastes I would argue are objectively better than others I am gonna get in trouble for writing that...



Sorry, wasn't implying you do. But I was implying that I at least can't find much better. Anything that actually is better to me looks like Christianity, with or without God.



Well, or the philosophy of any misanthrope...or Stoicism, or Schopenhauer (Buddhist-influenced, I admit), or even anyone who's just glum.

Granted about the afterlife, but this is kind of a caracature of Christianity, at least in the modern day. Most Christian churches believe strongly in improving life in the here and now, on top of any faith in the afterlife.