Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darth Dane · 07-08-2003, 11:36 PM

You're thinking within the limitations of our physical reality. Physical damage to sentient beings is a non-essential property which makes pain non-essential as well. Pleasure could certainly exist without pain and if I were a universe-creating deity, I would certainly design it in that manner (and all you heathens would have good reason for worshipping me) .

-Mike...

Yes, you noticed that I wrote the need for pain in physical reality.

It could and does!

What about those humans who like pain? S&M, dominace and so on.
Those who box and so on.
Would you not create reality so those who want it could get it?

Wouldn't you want as God, that all that you could create is created so that your devotees could see your brilliance?

DD - Love & Laughter

mike_decock · 07-09-2003, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
What about those humans who like pain? S&M, dominace and so on.
Those who box and so on.
Would you not create reality so those who want it could get it?

I might consider "optional pain" as part of the design, rather than the mandatory pain of this design.

Quote:

Wouldn't you want as God, that all that you could create is created so that your devotees could see your brilliance?

As an omnimax deity, I'd be constantly working on my creation, earning the :notworthy of my creatures.

-Mike...

Rachel · 07-09-2003, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by notMichaelJackson
Could you worship a god that your conscience told you not to?

In the past, no. I did believe in God, but I wasn't a christian for that very reason.

Time changes things though and faced with the same situation my answer would be different.

Could I? Definitely. Especially if the alternative was eternity in hell.

Would I want to? No, but I'd do my best to over come that.

Darth Dane · 07-09-2003, 07:07 AM

I might consider "optional pain" as part of the design, rather than the mandatory pain of this design.

You don't have to touch the red hot iron, you choose to.

You don't have to jump off a cliff to feel the pain, but you can choose to.

Ask and you shall be given

I wanna know if it hurts to jump off a cliff.

If you jump, you are given the answer.

As an omnimax deity, I'd be constantly working on my creation, earning the :notworthy of my creatures.

So you have an anthill, full of lesser beings, what would their appraisal do to you? Would it mean anything?

Maybe God is working, but if humans want to blow off nukes it is Ask and you shall be given, God won't stop anyones freewill. God will move the winds and earth and keep teh planets revolving around the sun you know stuff like that, the big picture stuff.

We think shit is filthy and bad, yet flies thrive on it and so is good for them.

Is shit good or bad?

Depends where you are looking from!

DD - Love & Laughter

mike_decock · 07-09-2003, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
You don't have to touch the red hot iron, you choose to.

You don't have to jump off a cliff to feel the pain, but you can choose to.

How many people choose to get hit by a car?
How many people choose to get cancer?
How many people choose to die of starvation?

Involuntary pain is unnecessarily cruel.

Quote:

So you have an anthill, full of lesser beings, what would their appraisal do to you? Would it mean anything?

I would derive pleasure from knowing that I brought them pleasure. Their appreciation for me should be for being a good creator and caretaker, not for simply being bigger and more powerful.

Quote:

God won't stop anyones freewill. God will move the winds and earth and keep teh planets revolving around the sun you know stuff like that, the big picture stuff.

The freedom to choose is not the problem, the option to cause pain is. It's a poor design.

-Mike...

scombrid · 07-09-2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No it doesn't - Jesus was also human. His mortal, human side died - not the God part. For people who claim to understand Christianity better than Christians, i really find you lacking in basic concepts.

Ooo boy the jesus sacrifice. Even if Jesus died and went to hell for 36hrs (Friday night to Sunday morning) how is that even a sacrifice? If he's in heaven for eternity then any finite amount of time (1day or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000 days) spent in hell is infinitesimally small compared to infinity in heaven.

Likewise, how can you consider infinite punishment for finite transgressions just?

Darth Dane · 07-09-2003, 08:43 AM

How many people choose to get hit by a car?

Don't leave your house, you know it is a possibility in life, yet you chance it. Want to know what Life Is? Have to jump in.

How many people choose to get cancer?

Living the wrong way can cause this. Don't give a damn? Suit yourself.
Working to hard causing stress and stress related diseases?

How many people choose to die of starvation?

Much much harder question to answer

Those in africa don't choose this, but "you" choose not to help them and so leave them to pain which you knew could be avoided. The Us spends 600 billion dollars a year on the millitary.

How many people could get fed by this?

Apparantly some believe making killing machines is more important than making life-saving machines.

Involuntary pain is unnecessarily cruel.

Yes, if God can cry, I believe God is crying for those who are punished by others, because God Loves both the victim and the assailent(sp?) God can't interfere, free will in Love.

The Kingdom is inside each human,

The Kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21

So God is with both sides, The OT God is wrathful, because perhaps it is out of control. The NT God is loving and forgiving, because Jesus could control his urge to call on teh angels as he was hanging on the cross

I would derive pleasure from knowing that I brought them pleasure. Their appreciation for me should be for being a good creator and caretaker, not for simply being bigger and more powerful.

Do they need to thank you for said pleasure, or is it enough if they are pleased?

In Love there is freedom, it isn't Love if it is constraining your freedom. Your Mom Loves you, and you ask why you can't go out at night. Because Mom protects you when you are young.

But true Love when the child can take care of its own, is freedom, your mother cannot command you to do something you won't do right? It wouldn't be loving as I see it.

Love freewill

DD - Love & Laughter

Amaranth · 07-09-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

God can't interfere, free will in Love.

BS. Your god supposedly has done so, quite often, in the past. Remember when your god fed the masses? Cured the blind? What about inflicting his will on the Pharisee's? Do I dare even touch the OT, or has this rediculous bit of apolegetics been beaten badly enough?

Quote:

But true Love when the child can take care of its own, is freedom, your mother cannot command you to do something you won't do right?

Almost as rediculous. This non-sequitur conveniently leaves out the eternity spend in your room (without desert) if you don't love your mother.

Amaranth

mike_decock · 07-09-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Don't leave your house, you know it is a possibility in life, yet you chance it. Want to know what Life Is? Have to jump in.

Your house could get washed away in a flood, faulty wiring can cause a fire and burn you alive. It is impossible to avoid the possibility of being hurt.

Quote:

Living the wrong way can cause this. Don't give a damn? Suit yourself.
Working to hard causing stress and stress related diseases?

People who strive to live healthy, stress-free lives get cancer every day.

Please consider these two statements you made:

Quote:

Those in africa don't choose this, but "you" choose not to help them and so leave them to pain which you knew could be avoided. The Us spends 600 billion dollars a year on the millitary.

Yes, if God can cry, I believe God is crying for those who are punished by others, because God Loves both the victim and the assailent(sp?) God can't interfere, free will in Love.

There is a double standard in your reasoning. You lay the blame on humanity for choosing not to interfere with people starving to death yet you consider God blameless for choosing not to interfere with people starving to death.

Do as I say, not as I do? Example by hypocrisy?

One of my children is starving while my other child has food to spare. I would be an unfit parent if I didn't do everything within my power to feed my starving child.

Quote:

Do they need to thank you for said pleasure, or is it enough if they are pleased?

It is enough if they are pleased.

Quote:

Because Mom protects you when you are young.

The need for protection is a flaw in the design.

-Mike...

winstonjen · 07-09-2003, 01:33 PM

Rachel, Darth Dane, you also need to address the inconsistency of your deity. Why would he only test Job, when there were many other righteous people to 'experiment' on.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-08-2003, 11:36 PM	#41
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	You're thinking within the limitations of our physical reality. Physical damage to sentient beings is a non-essential property which makes pain non-essential as well. Pleasure could certainly exist without pain and if I were a universe-creating deity, I would certainly design it in that manner (and all you heathens would have good reason for worshipping me) . -Mike... Yes, you noticed that I wrote the need for pain in physical reality. It could and does! What about those humans who like pain? S&M, dominace and so on. Those who box and so on. Would you not create reality so those who want it could get it? Wouldn't you want as God, that all that you could create is created so that your devotees could see your brilliance? DD - Love & Laughter

07-09-2003, 07:07 AM	#44
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	I might consider "optional pain" as part of the design, rather than the mandatory pain of this design. You don't have to touch the red hot iron, you choose to. You don't have to jump off a cliff to feel the pain, but you can choose to. Ask and you shall be given I wanna know if it hurts to jump off a cliff. If you jump, you are given the answer. As an omnimax deity, I'd be constantly working on my creation, earning* the :notworthy of my creatures.* So you have an anthill, full of lesser beings, what would their appraisal do to you? Would it mean anything? Maybe God is working, but if humans want to blow off nukes it is Ask and you shall be given, God won't stop anyones freewill. God will move the winds and earth and keep teh planets revolving around the sun you know stuff like that, the big picture stuff. We think shit is filthy and bad, yet flies thrive on it and so is good for them. Is shit good or bad? Depends where you are looking from! DD - Love & Laughter

07-09-2003, 08:43 AM	#47
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	How many people choose to get hit by a car? Don't leave your house, you know it is a possibility in life, yet you chance it. Want to know what Life Is? Have to jump in. How many people choose to get cancer? Living the wrong way can cause this. Don't give a damn? Suit yourself. Working to hard causing stress and stress related diseases? How many people choose to die of starvation? Much much harder question to answer Those in africa don't choose this, but "you" choose not to help them and so leave them to pain which you knew could be avoided. The Us spends 600 billion dollars a year on the millitary. How many people could get fed by this? Apparantly some believe making killing machines is more important than making life-saving machines. Involuntary pain is unnecessarily cruel. Yes, if God can cry, I believe God is crying for those who are punished by others, because God Loves both the victim and the assailent(sp?) God can't interfere, free will in Love. The Kingdom is inside each human, The Kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21 So God is with both sides, The OT God is wrathful, because perhaps it is out of control. The NT God is loving and forgiving, because Jesus could control his urge to call on teh angels as he was hanging on the cross I would derive pleasure from knowing that I brought them pleasure. Their appreciation for me should be for being a good creator and caretaker, not for simply being bigger and more powerful. Do they need to thank you for said pleasure, or is it enough if they are pleased? In Love there is freedom, it isn't Love if it is constraining your freedom. Your Mom Loves you, and you ask why you can't go out at night. Because Mom protects you when you are young. But true Love when the child can take care of its own, is freedom, your mother cannot command you to do something you won't do right? It wouldn't be loving as I see it. Love freewill DD - Love & Laughter

07-09-2003, 01:33 PM	#50
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	Rachel, Darth Dane, you also need to address the inconsistency of your deity. Why would he only test Job, when there were many other righteous people to 'experiment' on.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.