Freethought & Rationalism Archive

01-16-2002, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zamboniavenger:
 So, if there really is a xian god, heaven, and hell, I think that any rational person would have to chose to obey because going to hell would suck. It's a stacked deck of cards. There's no real freedom there.

Well just think of it as censorship being the key to success. With the first "thou shalt not" God got the ball rolling and look at where we are at today (even if we never did figure our how God got the ball rolling).

Jonny · 01-16-2002, 05:42 PM

Hey amos, what about the Roman catholic eucharist, are you going to touch on the subject of defecation???

zamboniavenger · 01-16-2002, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zamboniavenger:
So, if there really is a xian god, heaven, and hell, I think that any rational person would have to chose to obey because going to hell would suck. It's a stacked deck of cards. There's no real freedom there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well just think of it as censorship being the key to success. With the first "thou shalt not" God got the ball rolling and look at where we are at today (even if we never did figure our how God got the ball rolling).

I apologize, but I'm not entirely sure I see the connection between what you said and what I said. Anyways, let's take alook at where we are now, like you suggested. Would you like to start with hatred, intolerance, disease, death, or war? Besides, my question is about freedom, or free will. Censorship is not freedom and it would inhibit any free will.

David Gould · 01-16-2002, 06:32 PM

I donot think that the Christian usage of the term 'free will' is meant to imply that there are unlimited options.

I think it is more that we are considered free to accept God or not. This is the only choice that matters in the Christian world view.

Of course, there are many ways to not accept God so there is considerable freedom there anyway.

Further, free will in this sense is not even universal to Christians. I have just been having a discussion on Election via email with one of the moderators of <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com." target="_blank">www.baptistboard.com.</a> Calvinists believe that God chooses the Elect and not the other way around.

Augustine wrote along the lines that everyone is free to do whatever they like except get saved: a person's will has no meaning compared to God's will in this matter.

Anyway, the concept of 'free' in the free will in Christian doctrine has nothing to do with how restricted my choices are or not. It is simply that I am free to choose between the only two options available: God or not God.

01-16-2002, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonny:
Hey amos, what about the Roman catholic eucharist, are you going to touch on the subject of defecation???

So it is just bread and wine with a little water added to include the work of human hands between the alpha and the omega. What is there to write?

Maybe you do not know what consecration means.

-DM- · 01-16-2002, 10:09 PM

From "Concise Theology, A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs" by J. I. Packer, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., WHEATON, ILLINOIS:

Quote:

Free will ... has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers.

--Don--

HelenM · 01-17-2002, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonny:
considering that the bulk of you don't believe in hell, heaven, or a god to begin with, I don't see how I can possibly make any sense.

Oh, there surely must be a way...

Think really really hard...you do believe you have 'the mind of Christ', don't you?

If that doesn't mean you're capable of making sense, I don't know what does

love
Helen

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01-16-2002, 05:42 PM	#12
Jonny Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ca Posts: 57	Hey amos, what about the Roman catholic eucharist, are you going to touch on the subject of defecation???

01-16-2002, 06:32 PM	#14
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	I donot think that the Christian usage of the term 'free will' is meant to imply that there are unlimited options. I think it is more that we are considered free to accept God or not. This is the only choice that matters in the Christian world view. Of course, there are many ways to not accept God so there is considerable freedom there anyway. Further, free will in this sense is not even universal to Christians. I have just been having a discussion on Election via email with one of the moderators of <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com." target="_blank">www.baptistboard.com.</a> Calvinists believe that God chooses the Elect and not the other way around. Augustine wrote along the lines that everyone is free to do whatever they like except get saved: a person's will has no meaning compared to God's will in this matter. Anyway, the concept of 'free' in the free will in Christian doctrine has nothing to do with how restricted my choices are or not. It is simply that I am free to choose between the only two options available: God or not God.

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