Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dominus Paradoxum · 05-19-2003, 06:48 PM

Well, according to the article, they're not promoting prayer, they're just making sure that children have the right to engage in it voluntarily. I don't see the problem in that.

05-19-2003, 07:23 PM

Sure in the 1/3 of the childs day that the schools have them, they really need a few minutes to pray. What next? Time to study the bible in school? Time for confession (and hide the weasel)? Time for baptisms at lunch? How about ritual circumcision in the nurse's office? Or child polygamist marriage in study hall?

If they need time to pray, let them go to the can and have a minute with their gods.

Religion is religion, and it is not benign. It robs these children of their individuality and self-confidence. It leads the other children to believe that they also need to look outside of themselves and ask gods for help.

Jabu Khan · 05-20-2003, 05:01 AM

The constitution says nothing about a right to prayer in school. Just because you have religious freedom doesn't mean your free to express it wherever, whenever. Shoukld we take money away from schools that threaten children's rights to express themselves freely too. That could really open a nasty can of worms.

thebeave · 05-20-2003, 06:53 PM

What is the big deal? If a kid is really determined to pray during school hours (and I doubt there are really that many... the gov't makes it sound like its the top, pressing issue with kids), what's stopping him from going out during recess, sitting on the bench and silently (or verbally) saying a prayer? Nobody is stopping this?! Why can't the gov't see this? Why make a BFD about it! Why make the school waste its time and money showing compliance.

Jewel · 05-21-2003, 04:10 AM

I just found a press release on this very issue at American's United :

Quote:

[Barry] Lynn said the guidance is flawed in four key areas:
[list=1][*]The guidance states that �student-initiated� prayer is legal at graduation and other school events. In fact, the Supreme Court struck down �student-initiated� prayers before football games in 2002, and two lower federal courts have done the same. Only one federal appeals court has upheld such prayers.
[*]The guidance says that students have a legal right to incorporate religious themes in their class work and read to fellow students from religious texts. No court has ever granted students this right. In fact, several courts have said the opposite � that teachers have the right to protect other students from proselytization efforts disguised as classroom assignments.
[*]The guidance asserts that public school teachers have the right to participate in religious activities on school grounds in some cases. The courts have consistently banned teacher participation in prayers with students, and courts are mixed on whether teachers can meet to pray with each other on school grounds in an unofficial capacity.
[*]The guidance threatens loss of funding for schools that fail to comply with the Education Department�s decree. In fact, there is no language in the �No Child Left Behind Act of 2001� that authorizes the federal government to take such a draconian step.[/list=1]

Also see AU's public school guidance page.

It's sounding less and less, to me, like the Shrub Administration is really interested in the Constitution at all (not that I find this surprising) and more like they are trying to push their religious agenda into the public school system under the guise of being concerned about students constitutional rights.

05-19-2003, 07:23 PM	#12
twisted brother Guest Posts: n/a	not seeing the problem Sure in the 1/3 of the childs day that the schools have them, they really need a few minutes to pray. What next? Time to study the bible in school? Time for confession (and hide the weasel)? Time for baptisms at lunch? How about ritual circumcision in the nurse's office? Or child polygamist marriage in study hall? If they need time to pray, let them go to the can and have a minute with their gods. Religion is religion, and it is not benign. It robs these children of their individuality and self-confidence. It leads the other children to believe that they also need to look outside of themselves and ask gods for help.

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05-19-2003, 06:48 PM	#11
Dominus Paradoxum Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: California Posts: 1,000	Well, according to the article, they're not promoting prayer, they're just making sure that children have the right to engage in it voluntarily. I don't see the problem in that.

05-20-2003, 05:01 AM	#13
Jabu Khan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: the impenetrable fortress of the bubbleheads Posts: 1,308	The constitution says nothing about a right to prayer in school. Just because you have religious freedom doesn't mean your free to express it wherever, whenever. Shoukld we take money away from schools that threaten children's rights to express themselves freely too. That could really open a nasty can of worms.

05-20-2003, 06:53 PM	#14
thebeave Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 4,183	What is the big deal? If a kid is really determined to pray during school hours (and I doubt there are really that many... the gov't makes it sound like its the top, pressing issue with kids), what's stopping him from going out during recess, sitting on the bench and silently (or verbally) saying a prayer? Nobody is stopping this?! Why can't the gov't see this? Why make a BFD about it! Why make the school waste its time and money showing compliance.

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