Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rational BAC · 05-21-2003, 08:03 PM

Well I don't believe in original sin and I am a Christian.

One of those loathsome (by both sides) cherry picking Christians, but still a Christian in my own mind (which is all that really counts anyway.)

Cherry picking rules. It is the only way to go.

And PLEASE for Gawds sake STOP saying Christian when you really mean Fundamentalist Christian.

That is absurd, seriously incorrect, does you no good at all, is counterproductive, ----------- and it is beneath all you atheists when you otherwise try to be so technically correct about everything.

And I thank you in advance.

Opera Nut · 05-21-2003, 08:54 PM

Are you saying that liberal Xtians don't believe in Original Sin?

You said you were an Anglican.

Philosoft · 05-21-2003, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
Thus, infants and children would not be considered 'guilty' of 'original sin' in the sense that they had committed a crime, because they would have had no chance to make the choice, much less an understanding of that choice.

You're missing the point. The argument is that it is psychologically abusive to tell children that they are corrupt and sinful by nature. It has nothing to do with the belief that intellectually immature children go one place or the other if they die at a very young age.

Opera Nut · 05-21-2003, 09:12 PM

I've been on this site for months screaming about how it is psychologically abusive to tell ANYBODY of ANY AGE they are suffering from original sin.

Mageth · 05-21-2003, 10:20 PM

I've been on this site for months screaming about how it is psychologically abusive to tell ANYBODY of ANY AGE they are suffering from original sin.

Right on, Opera Nut. But it goes beyond that; most Xians who claim not to believe in original sin will still say that all of us are incapable of "perfection" or living a sinless life and therefore "choose" to corrupt ourselves, making us somehow unworthy of the god who created us in this hopeless position unless we acquiesce and bow before him, admitting to the "wretches" we are. F**k that, I say. (yes, MAGETH is ANGRY).

I just faced a storm of such accusations on the thread Pyrrho linked to. You're imperfect, you're sinful, you're unrighteous, you're not worthy, what ya gonna do about your guilt, you need redemption, god won't like ya if you don't bow before him and admit your unworthiness, just wait to you face tragedy, then you'll come begging, yada yada yada. Same old tired song. Hey, if you wanna live your life feeling like a wretch, have at it. I don't need that s**t.

Many Christians can't seem to handle people who don't feel those things. They seem to think everybody feels like a worthless sinner, or if they don't, should. When you tell them you don't, they answer "Oh yes, you do; you're just fooling yourself" or "That's your sinful pride" or "You just want to be able to act immoraly" or "Tsk, tsk. Wicked self-assurance!". They can't understand the release a former Xian can feel when they escape their shackling, degrading religion. They can't understand that feeling good about yourself is OK; that feeling self-assured, that being human, is enough for me. I don't need some imaginary God in the sky to wash me with the blood of his son to feel OK about myself. And I don't need the carrot of heaven and the stick of hell to behave "morally" as I see fit.

What is it about human nature that allows so many to be chained to such a degrading concept? If there's a god worth following, it sure didn't come up with such a program. If it did, then I'll hold my head high and give it the one-fingered salute - and not feel guilty about it for one second.

It's time the world wake up and realize the inhumanity, the immorality, of the "sinful nature" concept, whether it's original sin or the unavoidable tendency to sin. The more people that shed these stupid, shackling superstitious religions, the better off we'll be.

Opera Nut · 05-21-2003, 10:46 PM

RIGHT ON, MAGETH!!

CLASSIC RANT!!

:notworthy

Mageth · 05-21-2003, 11:10 PM

Thanks, Opera Nut. Sometimes you just gotta vent after a hard day's whacking your head against silly supersitions.

lpetrich · 05-21-2003, 11:22 PM

For what it's worth, St. Augustine claimed that babies are terrible sinners -- guilty of gluttony, jealousy, and other terrible sins.

And I don't think that Jesus Christ had any particular fondness for little children -- he was not described as doing a lot of playing with them.

Muffinstuffer · 05-22-2003, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft
You're missing the point. The argument is that it is psychologically abusive to tell children that they are corrupt and sinful by nature. It has nothing to do with the belief that intellectually immature children go one place or the other if they die at a very young age.

Hmm. I don't really remember the last time I told a child that he was corrupt or sinful.

Muffinstuffer · 05-22-2003, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
For what it's worth, St. Augustine claimed that babies are terrible sinners -- guilty of gluttony, jealousy, and other terrible sins.

And I don't think that Jesus Christ had any particular fondness for little children -- he was not described as doing a lot of playing with them.

Luke 18:15-17

"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."

Hmm. It seems to me that not only is Jesus extolling the virtues of childlike faith, but he is also telling everyone that the Kingdom of God belongs to children. If that doesn't mean that they are not going to Heaven, I don't know what it means.

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05-21-2003, 08:03 PM	#11
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Well I don't believe in original sin and I am a Christian. One of those loathsome (by both sides) cherry picking Christians, but still a Christian in my own mind (which is all that really counts anyway.) Cherry picking rules. It is the only way to go. And PLEASE for Gawds sake STOP saying Christian when you really mean Fundamentalist Christian. That is absurd, seriously incorrect, does you no good at all, is counterproductive, ----------- and it is beneath all you atheists when you otherwise try to be so technically correct about everything. And I thank you in advance.

05-21-2003, 08:54 PM	#12
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Are you saying that liberal Xtians don't believe in Original Sin? You said you were an Anglican.

05-21-2003, 09:12 PM	#14
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	I've been on this site for months screaming about how it is psychologically abusive to tell ANYBODY of ANY AGE they are suffering from original sin.

05-21-2003, 10:20 PM	#15
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I've been on this site for months screaming about how it is psychologically abusive to tell ANYBODY of ANY AGE they are suffering from original sin. Right on, Opera Nut. But it goes beyond that; most Xians who claim not to believe in original sin will still say that all of us are incapable of "perfection" or living a sinless life and therefore "choose" to corrupt ourselves, making us somehow unworthy of the god who created us in this hopeless position unless we acquiesce and bow before him, admitting to the "wretches" we are. F*k that, I say. (yes, MAGETH is ANGRY). I just faced a storm of such accusations on the thread Pyrrho linked to. You're imperfect, you're sinful, you're unrighteous, you're not worthy, what ya gonna do about your guilt, you need redemption, god won't like ya if you don't bow before him and admit your unworthiness, just wait to you face tragedy, then* you'll come begging, yada yada yada. Same old tired song. Hey, if you wanna live your life feeling like a wretch, have at it. I don't need that s*t. Many Christians can't seem to handle people who don't feel those things. They seem to think everybody* feels like a worthless sinner, or if they don't, should. When you tell them you don't, they answer "Oh yes, you do; you're just fooling yourself" or "That's your sinful pride" or "You just want to be able to act immoraly" or "Tsk, tsk. Wicked self-assurance!". They can't understand the release a former Xian can feel when they escape their shackling, degrading religion. They can't understand that feeling good about yourself is OK; that feeling self-assured, that being human, is enough for me. I don't need some imaginary God in the sky to wash me with the blood of his son to feel OK about myself. And I don't need the carrot of heaven and the stick of hell to behave "morally" as I see fit. What is it about human nature that allows so many to be chained to such a degrading concept? If there's a god worth following, it sure didn't come up with such a program. If it did, then I'll hold my head high and give it the one-fingered salute - and not feel guilty about it for one second. It's time the world wake up and realize the inhumanity, the immorality, of the "sinful nature" concept, whether it's original sin or the unavoidable tendency to sin. The more people that shed these stupid, shackling superstitious religions, the better off we'll be.

05-21-2003, 10:46 PM	#16
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	RIGHT ON, MAGETH!! CLASSIC RANT!! :notworthy

05-21-2003, 11:10 PM	#17
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Thanks, Opera Nut. Sometimes you just gotta vent after a hard day's whacking your head against silly supersitions.

05-21-2003, 11:22 PM	#18
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	For what it's worth, St. Augustine claimed that babies are terrible sinners -- guilty of gluttony, jealousy, and other terrible sins. And I don't think that Jesus Christ had any particular fondness for little children -- he was not described as doing a lot of playing with them.

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