nermal

Actually I was trying to say we are behaving in a moral fashion, but didn't do a very good job of it.

If they are not synonomous, then you can be honorable and immoral, or moral and dishonorable. I won't dispute this now, because I haven't thought about it enough. Needless to say I'm skeptical, and think the position somewhat dubious.
I used the word "honor" because I couldn't think of a word to describe morality as a personal characteristic, and not a general one. Recall, I was talking about moral agency, and wether or not someone could deprive you of moral agency simply by putting you in a situation in which your available choices were all abhorrent.
Is there such a principle? I've certainly never asserted such, and don't think I would. I would posit that murder is immoral, but not necessarily killing in all cases.
Be careful here. Suicide bombing has a terrible connotation due to the uses we have seen, but if I thought long enough, I suspect I might imagine situations where it would be honorable, even heroic. Particularly if it resulted in net lives saved.
I concur.

Nowhere357

I Agree. My point is not that the Palestinians are right. I'm trying to say that IF nuking a city may be moral, then we must admit that suicide bombing may be moral. At this time I'm not ready to admit that. I think suicide bombing is an immoral act - regardless of motivation.

I can agree with this. I think it supports my view: the option to bomb is still tainted with "evil" and so is not moral. However, it may still be the correct and honorable thing to do.

I admit I don't know much about what deep thinkers say about morality and honor. I am reading on the subject, but my opinions are just speaking from my heart.

I agree with your opinion on suicide bombing.

Right now I don't see the difference between seperating honor from morality, vs seperating morality from honor. Please explain in more depth your thoughts on this.

Nowhere357

To tell the truth, Ed, I'm skeptical myself. I'm also skeptical that mass human destruction should ever be considered moral.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the idea that morals refer to actions, as opposed to opinions (or justifications) of actions.

I think honor refers to justification of actions.

I think this supports my view.

I think I understand this dilemma. Maybe it would help if you defined "moral agency".

"Murder" is a legal term, and changes with time and society. I think laws are based on morality, and not the other way around.

So I think the issue is whether killing people is an immoral act. Again, if killing people is immoral UNLESS justified, then we must accept that suicide bombing MAY be a moral act, and I'm not ready to accept that.
I completely agree. Notice that this quote doesn't include the word "moral".

nermal

That's beginning to sound a bit knee-jerk. You're put off by the horror of mass human destruction, understandably so. But the horror and scope of it does not bear directly on the morality, I don't think.
If we don't allow for circumstances, then we are saying in effect that wealth equates to morality, or that some people are immoral simply because of where they are born.
It's easy for you and me to be moral, we're not challenged by decisions between horrible alternatives. Some people are; they're usually poor and usually third world residents.
I'm still chewing on this one.


Point taken. I must be more carefull selecting my words. I have to leave now, but will address the rest of your points later. This is great fun.

Ed

CALDONIA

Modern post-war writings on the A-bombs dropped on Japan assume that the result (military and political) of the attack were foregone conclusions. Hindsight lets us free to interpret the event as an atrocity, but given the political climate at theat time one should be wary of making moral judgments about those who chose to use the ultimate weapon on an enemy that showed little signs of capitulation from a horrific war of conquest.

At that time, the law of "the ends justify the means" was taken for granted in warfare. This attitude must be considered when examining the morality of droping nuclear bombs on Japan.