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Violent Messiah:

My human and prehuman ancestors had a survival over their contemporaries because they were able to form effective social groups. This helped them to more easily obtain food and fend off attackers. The instincts that allowed them to form these groups are the same ones that keep us acting in a social way today.

Colander of Truth

VM:

and how do you reconcile the obvious moral rectitude of this garbage...

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."--Luke 14:26

...with your beloved Ten Commandments behest to honor/obey one's parents?

Glad I can think for myself.

JCS

Subi dura a rudibus the statement came from Violent Messiah not me.

Jinto

Greetings, VM.

Your question is a common one, one that has been asked time and time again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And... well, you get the picture.

Before I answer your question, I would first like to ask: what is morality? According to the dictionary, it is "the quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct." But what is right or good? You will not hear any universal agreement on this issue. Cultures and religions vary from person to person, and therefore each person will give a slightly different answer. Granted, there will be a general consensus on major issues, such as whether it would be moral of me to go kill my next-door neighbor for no reason whatsoever (answer: NO). This is predictable, given that humans have some common interests (like staying alive). But can there be said to be some ultimate objective standard of morality? More to the point: what would be our reason for obeying if there is?

Persons who like to posit an objective standard of morality usually argue that we should do it because it is right. But what is right? That which is moral. What is moral? The behaviors we should do. Why should we do these things? Inevitably, with any such argument, you end up with the circular proposition that we should be moral because it is what we should do. Clearly, this argument carries very little weight.

Recognizing the weakness inherent in that argument, many point to the fact that we should do it because it is the command of God. But, why should we follow God's command if it is not in our best interests? Since the "you should do it because it's the right thing to do" argument has been soundly defeated, these people are left with the proposition that we should obey because God will punish us if we do not. Aside from the obvious question of why an omnipotent being would give a rat's ass about our behavior, this argument reveals the true danger of the theist position: without some omnimax being standing by to regulate their behavior, they would quickly revert to doing whatever they wanted, regardless of its effects on others. Now, I can hardly claim to be the keeper of the objective standard, but acting purely out of one's self-interest doesn't strike me as particularly moral. Nor does a God who enforces a standard of behavior which is demonstrably harmful to the beings he rules over (I am referring to God's policies of onquestioning obedience, to be enforced by stoning if nessecary). It is abundantly clear that if God does exist, then the theist does indeed have grounds for obeing God's law, but does not have any grounds for arguing that either their actions or God's are moral.

So, back to your question: Since atheists have no reason to obey a non-existant God, why then are we not going around raping and pillaging at will? Well you will remember that humanity has a consensus about morality derived from common interests. Because of that common interest, we also recognize that acting against it is nessecarily harmful: if not to us directly (although this quite frequently is the case), then to our community. None of us has any particular interest in seeing our community degraded, and we will therefore act in a generally moral fashion under normal circumstances. Systems of trial and punishment have little to do with this decision. It is common sense.

I talk to much.///

Colander of Truth

all fixed now!

Colander of Truth

Right, and there's no mention of cable theft in the Bible, so you are free to steal so long as they're not your neighbor!

JCS

1. Have no other gods before me [the God of the Hebrews].
2. Make no images of anything in heaven, earth or the sea, and do not worship or labor for them.
3. Do not vainly use the name of your God [the God of the Hebrews].
4. Do no work on the seventh day of the week.
5. Honor your parents.
6. Do not kill.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not give false testimony against another.
10. Do not desire another's wife or anything that belongs to another.


Well now that I am looking at them, no not really. I don't believe in any gods so cross out number 1.

Number 2 is out the window also.

Number 3 is out to. Even though I don't believe in gods I sometimes find myself saying goddamnit, like when the hammer hits the finger instead of the nail.

4 is a no go also. I work everyday to some degree or another. In fact the 7th day whether that be sat or sun is my day to catch up on household chores.

5 doesn't work either. The parents and I have a understanding, they leave me alone and I return the favor.

6 well what do you know, a winner! To bad it isn't number one on the list, I think Bush might be able to count that far.

7 Does it count if my wife dresses up and pretends to be someone else so that I can pick her......oh never mind.

8 Is there any wiggle room. Sometimes when I'm shopping I use coupons that I know are expired.

9 Ok that is number 2

10 well that aint going to happen. In fact the american economy would collapse if everyone followed that rule.

Well I follow 2 out of 10 for sure and possibly one more so you could say I have some principles based on the 2 commandments for sure. Other than that, nope they just don't work for me.

Colander of Truth

Hey, now you may have a point! Do you think we could all email Bush and politely tell him the Bible says "Do" "Not" "Kill" ???

Let's try ...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/

JCS

We could, but currently he is only listening to points that support breaking request #6.

CavemanUg

The ten commandments were a survival guide to a bunch of people wondering around the desert for FORTY years. How else do you avoid almost all drama. 1st and 2nd commandments give all the people one thing that is bigger than them to fall back on when their faith starts waivering in good old Moses. The third commandment actually refers to using God's name to envoke magic. The fourth is just to give people a rest no matter how hard they might want to press. The 5th in 40 years parents coem and go, with out an honor for those who came before you why would you honor their beliefs? Sixth Duh. 7th & 10th Stay away from other peoples (men were the only ones who were given property rights at the time) property (inclused wives). 8th if you can't trust people you are wondering aimlessly in the desert with who can you trust? And, lastly, 9th we dont want to start fueds while meandering through the scortching desert.

The indians (native americans) didnt go around killing and raping people... no no. But all of these people who "followed" the bible did. Too bad for the Indians (native americans).