Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ManM · 10-03-2002, 03:12 PM

Mad Kally,
I'll be cracking up when you meet Saint Nicholas some day.

Queen of Swords · 10-03-2002, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
Sinful pride. 

In your worldview, is there any other kind of pride?

You have to admit you are a loser in order to be saved. Proud people don't like that.

If you told a person that they had a tumor in their stomach, but you were not a doctor and provided no evidence for the existence of that tumor, would you call the person proud if they did not immediately strip and take a scalpel to themselves?

I am a much better member of society now.

That's very nice for you. Depending on how you define "a much better member of society", of course, I am a much better member of society now than when I was a christian.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]

Vanderzyden · 10-03-2002, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:


I have seen nothing in your responses to promote respect.

I will stop with this sentence.

There is nothing additional from you which makes any further engagement a sensible investment of time.

Good day,

Vanderzyden

Starboy · 10-03-2002, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


And how would you know that, Starboy? Is that your opinion?

Vanderzyden

Well Vander, I have looked at quite a few of your posts and you do tow the line for god. Perhaps you are toady enough to qualify for heaven.

Starboy

10-03-2002, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


I will stop with this sentence.

There is nothing additional from you which makes any further engagement a sensible investment of time.

Good day,

Vanderzyden

Translation:

I cannot answer any of your questions, so I will affect an attitude of wounded indignation and run away.

Tell me Vanderzyden...you ever consider a career in politics?

Starboy · 10-03-2002, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


No. I am not asking you to pretend that you are intent on becoming a follower of Christ.

Maintaining an open mind means setting aside presuppositions as much as possible. What are the truth claims? Are they reasonable? Why? What corrobating evidence is there? Does it have the ring of truth? etc. etc.

You don't have to go to the Bible, or the Qu'ran. Examine yourself, and nature. Ask yourself four questions:

V) 1. How does life come from non-life?
S) Nature.

V) 2. Why does something exist rather than nothing?
S) Naughty Vander, trick question. There has always been something.

V) 3. How does mind come from non-mind?
S) Nature

V) 4. Why do so many things take on the appearance of specialized purpose?
S) Tricky Vander, you need to get out more. The vast majority of the things in the universe do not appear to have a specialized purpose.

Vanderzyden

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]

Gee Vander, looks like nature has all the answers. The time of Christianity has come and gone. We no longer live in the age of gods, spirits, ghosts, devils and demons. This is the age of science. Looks like you are an anachronism.

Starboy

Jobar · 10-03-2002, 04:43 PM

Vanderzyden:
"I will stop with this sentence."

And yet you did not! This sort of petty and barefaced lying I almost never see from the atheists here; Van, do you even begin to realize just how terribly you represent the religion you claim to espouse?!

So you think that Ron Garrett has dissed you. Well, drip drip! My heart bleeds for you! You are not required to pay him any attention- you could attempt answers to some of the honest and heartfelt questions posed to you and your co-religionists by others. Instead, you choose to act all injured and leave in a huff!

Ron, I think you pinned him dead center- I admire your aim, and share your disgust with Vander's slimy self-righteousness.

RJS, ManM, GeoTheo, Amos- do any of you wish to attempt answers to the many questions left unanswered here, beginning with the title question? How do you answer questions like this in the quiet of your own minds? Do you ask these questions honestly, and attempt to find honest answers? If you do, and you try to answer as best you can- I assure you that you will have a respectful audience here. (Though of course you may find we respectfully disagree!)

MrDarwin · 10-03-2002, 04:45 PM

Let's sum up, shall we?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
They don't even agree with themselves. The gospels contradict each other.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
No sir, they do not. This is a common objection made by those who have not read them carefully nor undertaken to understand the meaning.

Please tell me, in your own words, what is the single most obvious contradiction in the gospels, or the entire NT for that matter. Please demonstrate your case with examples from the text.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:

I gave the Judas example in response to Vandy's inerrancy challenge on the prior page.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


You are in error, sir. I did not present an inerrancy challenge.

Perhaps you have a unassailable defintion of inerrancy that you could share with us.

Vanderzyden

Well, to give Vanderzyden the benefit of the doubt, it was technically a contradiction challenge he made, not an inerrancy challenge. What a shame that in giving an excellent example, Ron mistakenly said "Vandy's inerrancy challenge" rather than "Vandy's contradiction challenge", completely muddying the entire issue and giving Vandy an opportunity to avoid it entirely.

But I absolutely cannot wait for Vanderzyden to demonstrate to us how the two stories of Judas do not contradict each other, or how two stories that contradict each other do not suggest that one is errant, or what his definition of inerrancy might be to encompass two completely different--some might say contradictory--stories.

Or perhaps Vanderzyden is incapable of doing any of these things, and is just looking for a good excuse to get out of them?

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

RJS · 10-03-2002, 05:20 PM

Well, after hanging around a few threads for a few months, I will make the following observation.

Many of these arguments are silly to have between an atheist and a theist. The arguments are PETTY compared to the first question which must be debated "Does God Exist?" Wouldn't you rather worry about whether God exists than whether there is a "meaningless" error in the bible? Part of my observation is introspective, so don't bash me - mea culpa (oops - English only).

We have all been down the inerrancy threads, the hell is cruel threads, omnipotent-omnipresent...threads, they ALL end the same way. Theists are convinced they are right, and atheists are convinced they are right. Then why are we here in the first place if it all comes down to faith - it did 2,000 years ago and it still does, notwithstanding scientific advancements. It is the beauty of the whole deal.

I believe in God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that the bible is the Word - not necessarily literal and inerrant, but possibly. But most importantly (to the thread question), I believe God is just - I believe that those who deny God or do not live a life of repentance from sin will get justice - you can plead your case at the time and I am certain justice will be served - it isn't up to me. I believe those that truly repent will receive total forgiveness from God.

But if we can't get past the first sentence of the prior paragraph, we are all just wasting bandwidth.

MrDarwin · 10-03-2002, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
The arguments are PETTY compared to the first question which must be debated "Does God Exist?"

No, that is not the first question at all. The bottom-line question is, "Why should I believe that God exists?" I'm still waiting for some person to give me a good reason to believe, since God--if such a thing exists--has not seen fit to do so.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

10-03-2002, 03:55 PM	#142
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by GeoTheo: <strong>Sinful pride. </strong> In your worldview, is there any other kind of pride? <strong>You have to admit you are a loser in order to be saved. Proud people don't like that.</strong> If you told a person that they had a tumor in their stomach, but you were not a doctor and provided no evidence for the existence of that tumor, would you call the person proud if they did not immediately strip and take a scalpel to themselves? <strong>I am a much better member of society now.</strong> That's very nice for you. Depending on how you define "a much better member of society", of course, I am a much better member of society now than when I was a christian. [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-03-2002, 03:12 PM	#141
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	Mad Kally, I'll be cracking up when you meet Saint Nicholas some day.

10-03-2002, 04:43 PM	#147
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Vanderzyden: "I will stop with this sentence." And yet you did not! This sort of petty and barefaced lying I almost never see from the atheists here; Van, do you even begin to realize just how terribly you represent the religion you claim to espouse?! So you think that Ron Garrett has dissed you. Well, drip drip! My heart bleeds for you! You are not required to pay him any attention- you could attempt answers to some of the honest and heartfelt questions posed to you and your co-religionists by others. Instead, you choose to act all injured and leave in a huff! Ron, I think you pinned him dead center- I admire your aim, and share your disgust with Vander's slimy self-righteousness. RJS, ManM, GeoTheo, Amos- do any of you wish to attempt answers to the many questions left unanswered here, beginning with the title question? How do you answer questions like this in the quiet of your own minds? Do you ask these questions honestly, and attempt to find honest answers? If you do, and you try to answer as best you can- I assure you that you will have a respectful audience here. (Though of course you may find we respectfully disagree!)

10-03-2002, 05:20 PM	#149
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	Well, after hanging around a few threads for a few months, I will make the following observation. Many of these arguments are silly to have between an atheist and a theist. The arguments are PETTY compared to the first question which must be debated "Does God Exist?" Wouldn't you rather worry about whether God exists than whether there is a "meaningless" error in the bible? Part of my observation is introspective, so don't bash me - mea culpa (oops - English only). We have all been down the inerrancy threads, the hell is cruel threads, omnipotent-omnipresent...threads, they ALL end the same way. Theists are convinced they are right, and atheists are convinced they are right. Then why are we here in the first place if it all comes down to faith - it did 2,000 years ago and it still does, notwithstanding scientific advancements. It is the beauty of the whole deal. I believe in God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that the bible is the Word - not necessarily literal and inerrant, but possibly. But most importantly (to the thread question), I believe God is just - I believe that those who deny God or do not live a life of repentance from sin will get justice - you can plead your case at the time and I am certain justice will be served - it isn't up to me. I believe those that truly repent will receive total forgiveness from God. But if we can't get past the first sentence of the prior paragraph, we are all just wasting bandwidth.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.