Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ice · 04-17-2003, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Christians are supposed to be servants of God, not God the servant of Christians.

Why should I be subservient?

Enlighten Me · 04-17-2003, 05:00 PM

I recently read an article in "O" Magazine (October 2002) about a physician who was conducting research on the power of prayer to heal people with a rare, and deadly form of brain cancer (glioblastoma). Ironically, she herself was diagnosed with the cancer and became a subject in her own research. At the end of the article, it was noted that she was receiving hospice care at her home and information about her research project could be found online at www.etarg.net. I eagerly went to the website since my brother-in-law was recently diagnosed with this same terrible disease. Sadly, the physician, Elizabeth Targ, had died. In fact, she had died several months before the magazine issue came out...

mike_decock · 04-17-2003, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
In general, I believe He is mostly committed to a course of non-direct interference in order to allow free-will of all, but that He can and does act through people who are willing to be his servants.

Willing servants, just like Jonah?

Quote:

His will is clearly revealed in the teachings of Christianity.

That explains why there is no confusion or disagreement between Christian denominations. Oh, wait...

-Mike...

Bree · 04-17-2003, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
Actually, I think "give us today our daily bread" is a not-so-subtle dual reminder 1. not to pray "to be able to afford a brand new car in a year's time", and 2. of our continued dependency on God and that we should be living our (spiritual lives atleast) that we are continually dependent upon God's bread daily.

I'd like to echo the others in asking about Lesley Ann Downey.

Lesley Ann wasn't praying for a new car. She was praying for God to save her life. When you say that she is continually dependent upon God's bread daily, it brings me to the conclusion that God just didn't give that poor little girl her daily recommended allowance.

ex-xian · 04-17-2003, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
Prayer works. I think its one of the greatest things we can do for one another.

I really wish I had more time right now ex-xian. Ironically I almost opened a thread yesterday called "The ineffectuality of prayer?NO NO NO" but I did not have the time I would have liked to devote to it.
I am glad you started this one.

Well, my OP was mostly about praying for another's conversion to xianity. If you have a rebuttal to my argument, by all means, post it and let's discuss.

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Depends what you pray for. If you pray for spiritual growth, then prayer inevitably works. But if you pray for changing something in the real, material world (such as healing the sick or multiplying loaves of bread) then it won't work, because natural law is absolute and unchangeable. Prayer to change the course of natural law cannot work anymore than prayer to make 2+2=5 can. God set the laws of nature in the beginning and made them immutable.

So you're a deist? You don't believe in the god of the bible then. What type of god do you believe in, and what is you basis for believing in her?

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Depends what you pray for. If you pray for spiritual growth, then prayer inevitably works.

Originally posted by Asha'man
Demonstrably false. I prayed for spiritual growth, and now I am an atheist.

Or do you want to suggest that being an atheist is spiritually superior to being a theist wanting reassurance about his doubts?

Ditto, kind of. I prayed for spiritual growth, quite fervently actually, and ended up giving up xianity.

mike_decock · 04-18-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-xian
Ditto, kind of. I prayed for spiritual growth, quite fervently actually, and ended up giving up xianity.

Couldn't that be considered the greatest "spiritual growth"? It means you matured beyond the reliance on a religious system of fear of punishment, desire for reward or emotional bribery to be guided by your own "spirit".

-Mike...

Treacle Worshipper · 04-18-2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Tercel
Consider "The Lord's Prayer". It doesn't give a list of "people I want converted" or "miracles I want done NOW!" Rather, it merely says "your will be done", a reminder for the sake of the person praying, not to encourage God.
<snip>
Christians are supposed to be servants of God, not God the servant of Christians. Yes? It is surely the servant's duty to do the will of the master, not vice versa. It is not the servant's place to make demands of the master as if he were a cosmic vending machine.

The "thy will be done" caused me huge problems on occasion (when I was Xian). Every single prayer ended in "but if that's not your will, then thy will be done." It was a constant state of uncertainty. I ended up praying things like "God, I really want to serve you in my life and I'm coming up to graduation. I'm trusting to your guidance for what to do with my life."

A couple of months later: "God, I have these 2 job interviews to go to. I want to do your will. Please guide me so that I make a good impression on the people you want me to work with, so I can be in the place you want me to be."

And then, "God, I guess you didn't want me to get either of those jobs. But I trust you for the future."

And again, "God, I've got this job offer for a job which is nothing like what I think you want me to do, but it's the only job offer I've got, so I'm going to take it. Your will be done."

Nowadays, I figure life just happens & you have to go out & get on with it. All that praying never filled in an application form or got me an interview. And every time I was absolutely sure what God wanted me to do, it turned out I was totally mistaken.
<shrug> Such is life

TW

sakrilege · 04-18-2003, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
And every time I was absolutely sure what God wanted me to do, it turned out I was totally mistaken.

Like you thought god wanted you to believe in him.

Treacle Worshipper · 04-18-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege
Like you thought god wanted you to believe in him.

Shake · 04-18-2003, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
Hmm... with reading comprehension like that, I don't think I want to know what you think of the Bible.

Of course you don't! You don't really want to know what any atheist really thinks, do you? Too bad, I'll tell you anyway: the Bible, too, is full, nay, overflowing with contradictions! If you've read it, you can't deny that. It's there in b&w.

Quote:

I believe God knows our needs and acts on them as He sees fit. In general, I believe He is mostly committed to a course of non-direct interference in order to allow free-will of all, but that He can and does act through people who are willing to be his servants.
His will is clearly revealed in the teachings of Christianity.

Clear, huh? That's why millions of Xians can't figure it out or agree between different divisions of the same denomination?

Quote:

Asking to be forgiven is merely an expression of the state of your own heart. -Or a reminder to you that your heart should be in this state if it's not. Presumably you know what rhetorical questions are. Things phrased as requests are not necessarily asked for the purposes of an answer.
God knows our heart and whether we have repented, He hardly needs us to tell Him: What we say, we say for our own benefit not His.

Oh! How silly of me. No xian actually expects to get anything out of prayer. That's why they ask acquaintances to pray for their loved ones who are sick or injured or far away to get better/travel safely/whatever.

Quote:

People ask for things like that because they have a low conception of God: They think He is an ignorant child incapable of wanting peace until they tell him.

I'm thinking yes. It reminds the prayer of many important things which they need to sort out in their own lives (their state of mind towards other people, God, sin etc), and helps them to sort some of those things out too.

Again, this serves no tangible purpose. If one wanted a reminder, one could simply write things down on a planner, journal, calendar, or to-do list. Just as (if not more) effective than praying for those purposes.

It's not my reading comprehension that needs work. It's just that your "arguments" contain no real proof that prayer actually does anything, and so I remain unconvinced of the "power" of prayer!

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04-17-2003, 05:00 PM	#22
Enlighten Me Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Ca. Posts: 1,109	I recently read an article in "O" Magazine (October 2002) about a physician who was conducting research on the power of prayer to heal people with a rare, and deadly form of brain cancer (glioblastoma). Ironically, she herself was diagnosed with the cancer and became a subject in her own research. At the end of the article, it was noted that she was receiving hospice care at her home and information about her research project could be found online at www.etarg.net. I eagerly went to the website since my brother-in-law was recently diagnosed with this same terrible disease. Sadly, the physician, Elizabeth Targ, had died. In fact, she had died several months before the magazine issue came out...

04-18-2003, 04:25 PM	#27
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	Originally posted by Tercel Consider "The Lord's Prayer". It doesn't give a list of "people I want converted" or "miracles I want done NOW!" Rather, it merely says "your will be done", a reminder for the sake of the person praying, not to encourage God. <snip> Christians are supposed to be servants of God, not God the servant of Christians. Yes? It is surely the servant's duty to do the will of the master, not vice versa. It is not the servant's place to make demands of the master as if he were a cosmic vending machine. The "thy will be done" caused me huge problems on occasion (when I was Xian). Every single prayer ended in "but if that's not your will, then thy will be done." It was a constant state of uncertainty. I ended up praying things like "God, I really want to serve you in my life and I'm coming up to graduation. I'm trusting to your guidance for what to do with my life." A couple of months later: "God, I have these 2 job interviews to go to. I want to do your will. Please guide me so that I make a good impression on the people you want me to work with, so I can be in the place you want me to be." And then, "God, I guess you didn't want me to get either of those jobs. But I trust you for the future." And again, "God, I've got this job offer for a job which is nothing like what I think you want me to do, but it's the only job offer I've got, so I'm going to take it. Your will be done." Nowadays, I figure life just happens & you have to go out & get on with it. All that praying never filled in an application form or got me an interview. And every time I was absolutely sure what God wanted me to do, it turned out I was totally mistaken. <shrug> Such is life TW

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