Amos

Thanks sullster and you are correct that if I 'make it my own' it would become interesting. Someday maybe, and then we'll talk again.

I remember the name Erasmus from school and always liked that name (did you noticed I knew and spelled his first name correctly?).

Bible Humper

Sorry Amos, I forgot about our conversation here.

Do you honestly feel that there is a price, "in line with their ability to pay", that can justify rape?

Imagine yourself back in the feudal age where you have no power to resist your lord if he happens to be a monster. The only hope you have that your mother, sisters, daughters, and wife are safe from this guy's lust is that he believes that there is a law above himself.

How much money to the church would you consider to make the rape of a woman you love be a "fair trade"?

The question of "who cares?" regarding the "odd priest" who engages in this kind of "pimping" is answered by:

The victim of the rape and everyone who loves her

sighhswolf

." The other main concept was the rise of the vision of the individual dealing directly with god without the intercession of a priest."

This is another one of those strange things associated with protestant religious practices.

The origin of the "direct contact with god" school of thought was about as Jewish as you can possibly get.
In Jewish/Hebrew law it is strictly forbidden to place an intermediary between god and man.
The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest.
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

So a personal relationship with god was one of the corner stones of the protestant faith, and that is a Jewish concept.
No Priests as in catholicism, and no prayers to Mary and no confessions but they kept Jesus between god and man, as a mediator/intermediary thereby seperating themselves from the Hebrew law in it's entirety.
So the Hebrews considered the christian doctrines that upheld jesus as the savior of mankind and the only way to salvation, as Idolatry.
Which would have put the Jews in Luthers sights
as unredeemable, and opposed to the reformation
movement.
Wolf

sullster

Sighhswolf,
Very good points made on Luther and protestantism. The rabid anti-Jewishness of Luther is complicated by the Reformation's assimilation of the Jewish part of the bible:the old testament.

One the aspects of the Reformation's embrace of the bible, was the inclusion of the old testament in its theology. The midevil catholic church did not include the old testament to a large degree in it's theology. Catholic theologians were really more interested in assimilating Aristotle into new testament myths.

Your comment about the Jews, saying that having Jesus between god and the individual was "idolitry", is well taken. The odd thing about the protestants is that they used the idea of "idolitry" to assault the catholics. Some of Luther's most severe slogans against the catholics include the charge that they were idol worshippers.

In conclusion, it is odd on some levels to see such anti-Jewish feelings coming from Luther and his protestants, considering how much the Protestant Reformation absorbed Jewish ideas from the old testament. Yet, I maintain again, that the desire of all christian sects to distance themselves from the Jews,always arose and always will.

Christianity is such an unorignal religion, that it must always disparage its roots so as to make itself unique. Luther must have felt this tension very much and thus had to rip apart the Jews, even though he absorbed Jewish theology into his ideas.

Amos

My answer to your "rape indulgence" was that it was protestant theology and therefore not true.

Indulgences were in line with their ability to pay and were never mandatory payments.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>