Pitshade

That's what The Who were trying to tell us!

JL

I'd convert for #4.

IvanK

1. No more needless suffering of innocents in natural disasters.

2. All humans stop treating their fellow humans badly.

Of course that would require a fundamental change in the nature of the universe. But is that really so much to ask of omnipotence?

-DM-

The happenings which Seeker196 feels would be convincing for him would NOT be convincing for me. Why? Because they could not definitively be differentiated from hallucination as Mad Kally and others point out.

For me, a convincing demonstration would involve "God" speaking, or both speaking and appearing, so that every man, woman, and child on the face of the earth who is capable of perceiving the event would hear, or hear and see, "God" clearly identifying "himself" and giving us some clear guidance on what, if anything, "he" wants of us.

The fact that this allegedly perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and loving "God" prefers to remain incognito, letting a succession of bumbling popes, ministers, evangelists, apologists, and other assorted followers do "his" bidding for him is not only NOT convincing, but damaging to the credibility of "God's" alleged existence.

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"God:" The word that comes after "go-cart." - Samuel Butler
(1835-1902), English author

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--Don--

Mad Kally

Seeker196,
Nothing could ever convince me that a god exists, so the question itself is pointless to me.

What would convince you that Santa exists at the north pole? An ancient book that says he and his little helpers/reindeer exist? Proof that he died and came back to life after 3 days? Millions of prayers being answered and miracles being performed in the name of St. Nick?

The stars spelling out S A N T A ?

God is the only childhood myth carried over into adulthood. (except for one other)

The real TRUTH is that I am the tooth fairy for atheists..

What if everyone in the world woke up on a certain date and found $20 under their pillows? What if TV cameras had been set-up everywhere in advance? What if I appeared complete with little fairy wings so the entire world could see that I exist. What if I could take one of the mountains here and move it next to Pantera's house in Ohio?

What if the stars spelled out M A D K A L L Y ? What would it take for you to believe in me?

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

Seeker196

But Mad Kally, what about this:

I have in front of me a phonebook. Flipping randomly through it, I find some guy..Dave X lets call him.

How can I ever prove to you that Dave X is real?

Pictures can be forged. Witnesses can lie or be mistaken. Records can be lost or altered or wrong.

Even if I brought Dave to you, in person, with his family. You could still say: "All these people could be imposters. You have no proof that Dave exists."

Well the usual answer is that God is an extraordinary claim, it requires extraordinary evidence....

but you are saying that there is NO evidence, no matter how extraordinary or convincing, that would make you pretty sure God is real.

Isn't it only reasonable that one evaluates competing claims based on evidence? The claim with more and better quality evidence should be believed over the claim with less. Currently the god-idea doesn't have evidence...but what if one day, evidence was uncovered? I think your position might be unreasonable.

Further thought about the implications of not believing in a concept, REGARDLESS of the amount and quality of sense-evidence:
Mad, isn't your position somewhat Buddhist or one of Extreme Skepticism like the President in 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'? Why, logically, limit yourself to God? I mean, the existence of a complex universe of energy and matter instead of nothing strikes me as being an extreme claim requiring extraordinary evidence...

You and Dave both brought up the idea that any seeming evidence for 'God' would be a hallucination. Why stop at God? I mean, this monitor, my desk, etc....Do you see what I am getting at?

If you say there is no evidence that could possibly prove 'x' to you, that isn't a Materialist position. In fact, in sounds a little like the Xians who say, 'NO MATTER WHAT evidence is presented, I will always believe 'x', because 'y' is inconcievable to me'. That is is just as illogical when you switch the x and the y beliefs.

I don't believe in the J-C God. In fact, I think it is an incoherent concept, an idea that conveys no factual information. BUT I must accept that evidence COULD be presented, evidence which would force me to reconsider all my views on logic, reality, etc. It just hasn't happened. This is because I accept that chairs, desks, walls etc exist (or at least I'm 99.999999999% sure), 'accept' in the sense that the evidence seems to be in their favour.

Photocrat

Just be careful with the 99.999999999% ;]

If you mean that last '9' to be repeating, the number you've expressed is an ambiguous decimal expansion--one which happens to equal 100 :]

.9999_ = .8888_ + .1111_ [no objection, right? :]
.8888_ = 8/9 [test via long division]
.1111_ = 1/9 [ditto]
.9999_ = 8/9 + 1/9 = 1

Fortunately, you left it as just 999999999/1000000000 which is not equal to 1 :]

As for the rest, I couldn't have said it better myself :] Well, except for a few bits which I'd have to change, given that I'm a Christian...

Seeker196

"Well, except for a few bits which I'd have to change, given that I'm a Christian..."

Why? There is no reason to be, except social pressure.

HelenM

I already believe in you, Kally

So, if I saw your name in the sky I'd think "That figures" or "Go Kally" or "It's about time!"

I find your Mom hard to believe, on the other hand...that she has treated you the way she has - not that I'm saying I doubt your word or that I want evidence, but rather that it's hard to believe some people can really be that way

love
Helen

HelenM

You mean, like, Christians say He already did?

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed ; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." -- John 20:29

love
Helen