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Old 01-03-2003, 10:11 AM   #31
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Originally posted by wildernesse
There were just a couple of protesters at the march, correct? There are millions of believers in this country. Talk about an unbiased sample. Think about that and then tell me how those rude individuals represent all of Christianity.

--tibac
wildernesse, you missed my point. Christianity claims to own the moral high ground. To be the nexus of love and understanding. Imagine what an incredible demonstration of love and tolerance the Christians could have displayed if just a handful of the millions of Christians showed up with signs proclaiming. "We respect your right to not believe, but we love you anyway." But alas no such thing took place. What did happen is not proof that Christianity is busted but what did take place on the part of Christians does not refute the claim either.

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Old 01-03-2003, 10:36 AM   #32
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Originally posted by seebs
Well, go ahead, explain 'em. Pretend I'm slow. Explain what you mean about "truth" (in quotes). Show how it is incomptible with tolerance.

And look around closely at all the folks here who disagree with me and think it's just fine that we have different opinions. See me fighting with any of them? This is an important point, with Implications.
seebs, I though I was expressing a disagreement with you. What may have offended you was my prescription to toss Christianity onto the scrap heap of history. It is my right to hold that opinion.

As to an explaination, let me ask you a question. If you didn't think Christianity were "true" would you be a Christian? Would anyone be a Christian? This may seem like a strange idea, but consider the possiblity that you are holding onto the thought patterns from the first century. That there is a new way of thinking that has proved very successful that does not require the "truth" in order to work.

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Old 01-03-2003, 10:39 AM   #33
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Originally posted by Starboy
wildernesse, you missed my point. Christianity claims to own the moral high ground. To be the nexus of love and understanding. Imagine what an incredible demonstration of love and tolerance the Christians could have displayed if just a handful of the millions of Christians showed up with signs proclaiming. "We respect your right to not believe, but we love you anyway." But alas no such thing took place. What did happen is not proof that Christianity is busted but what did take place on the part of Christians does not refute the claim either.
And yet, you keep missing *her* point: For people to show up after being told not to could *never* have shown that Christians are indeed tolerant of the rights of others. If they had, you (or others) would be complaining that even the so-called "tolerant" Christians weren't willing to leave atheists alone.

You can pick one or the other; either you want the Christians to stay away, or you want them to come demonstrate in support. But you can't reject both, and then complain.
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:43 AM   #34
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Originally posted by seebs
And yet, you keep missing *her* point: For people to show up after being told not to could *never* have shown that Christians are indeed tolerant of the rights of others. If they had, you (or others) would be complaining that even the so-called "tolerant" Christians weren't willing to leave atheists alone.

You can pick one or the other; either you want the Christians to stay away, or you want them to come demonstrate in support. But you can't reject both, and then complain.
seebs, I would never tell Christians to stay away. In fact I would expect them to come, which they did. How they behaved is another matter entirely. Also I am not talking about the behavior of atheists. IMO just because one is an atheist doesn't mean that anything can be implied about their behavior. This also appears to be the case for Christians, yet another example of how busted Christianity is. This discussion is about Christians not atheists, if I were a follower of the Pink Unicorn I think I would feel the same way.

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Old 01-03-2003, 10:44 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Starboy
seebs, I though I was expressing a disagreement with you. What may have offended you was my prescription to toss Christianity onto the scrap heap of history. It is my right to hold that opinion.
It is your right to hold the opinion that the world would be thus improved; it is not your right to advocate the destruction of a competing belief system.

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As to an explaination, let me ask you a question. If you didn't think Christianity were "true" would you be a Christian? Would anyone be a Christian? This may seem like a strange idea, but consider the possiblity that you are holding onto the thought patterns from the first century. That there is a new way of thinking that has proved very successful that does not require the "truth" in order to work.
What's strange about it? I have, indeed, many thought patters from the first century, and some much older. My basic ideas of propositional logic predate Christianity by some years.

I am aware that there are *many* ways of thinking. I am not afraid of any of 'em; I just don't think any of them are, alone, "all the truth I need".

See, you're assuming that, because I have some religious beliefs, that this is the only way I think, and that I'm not familiar with, say, the scientific method, or with formal logic, or with any of the other ways of thinking about the world. I have no idea why you assume this. It's a stupid assumption, frankly; even the most casual effort would show that I use other tools when I think they're appropriate.

I would really like to see you define your concept of "truth" (in quotes), because I am not sure what you think it means. The idea of external truth? I don't think most models will work without that.

If you mean "rejection of other ways of thinking about things", then yes, that's a bad thing. But you're the one doing it, not me; I use different ways of thinking for different problems. You've picked a way of thinking, declared it the enemy, and announced that it must be destroyed.

That, to my mind, is the real problem.
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:47 AM   #36
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Originally posted by Starboy
seebs, I would never tell Christians to stay away.
Perhaps, but the people organizing the march did.

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In fact I would expect them to come, which they did. How they behaved is another matter entirely. Also I am not talking about the behavior of atheists. IMO just because one is an atheist doesn't mean that anything can be implied about their behavior. This also appears to be the case for Christians, yet another example of how busted Christianity is. This discussion is about Christians not atheists, if I were a follower of the Pink Unicorn I think I would feel the same way.
Huh? What's busted about the observation that Christians don't all act alike? That's a feature, not a bug; it means that we're getting free of the "you must feel a certain way to be one of us" model, and allowing people to bring their own experiences to the table.

Both groups have "fundies" who deny that people who disagree with them are "real" members of their group; you'll see occasional atheist fundies bashing other atheists for not being anti-religious enough. I get bashed by Christian fundies for not being anti-atheist enough. In the end, the *real* line is not "atheist/theist", but "tolerant/intolerant". Rufus and Wildy are on the same side. I'm on the same side as lots of people here. You and people like gunnysgt are also on the same side; it's the side that wants to fight to the death to eliminate someone else's right to hold personal beliefs.

In the end, to eliminaute religion is to eliminate the right to hold personal beliefs... and that stays wrong whether its your beliefs or mine being banned.
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:49 AM   #37
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As to an explaination, let me ask you a question. If you didn't think Christianity were "true" would you be a Christian? Would anyone be a Christian?
Please answer the question, because I think it is crucial to the discussion. As to the term "truth", I have no idea what it is. It is such a screwed up notion that it surprises me that any intelligent person would use it at all. I do know this, there are religious nuts right now killing people because of it.

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Old 01-03-2003, 10:57 AM   #38
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Originally posted by seebs
Huh? What's busted about the observation that Christians don't all act alike? That's a feature, not a bug; it means that we're getting free of the "you must feel a certain way to be one of us" model, and allowing people to bring their own experiences to the table.
So what distinguishes a Christian from anyone else? You make is sound as if nothing does. As if Christian, Hindu, Jew, Mulsim and so forth should be interchangable. Is this your hope or do you think that is how the world is today?

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Old 01-03-2003, 10:57 AM   #39
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Originally posted by Starboy
Please answer the question, because I think it is crucial to the discussion. As to the term "truth", I have no idea what it is. It is such a screwed up notion that it surprises me that any intelligent person would use it at all. I do know this, there are religious nuts right now killing people because of it.
Of course I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't think that the religion's basic tenets were valid. So?

I think that, if you don't know what you mean by the term, you shouldn't blame society's ills on it; that strikes me as being a bit of a leap. I can at least tell you what intolerance is, before I blame society's ills on it.

I think I see your mistake. The distinction between truth and "truth" is where the problem comes in. What, exactly, is that distinction? It's that the latter is the one people are willing to kill over.

In other words, it's not what you believe, or whether you believe it's true (which is nearly exactly the same thing), but whether you can *tolerate other views*. That's the distinction.

Most people are quite content to live their lives surrounded by people whose opinions they may not share. The few who don't are very loud.

So... You have the same "truth" thing; you believe you've found a belief system to be false, and because of this, it is important to you that it be eliminated, because it's the "false belief" that's causing all the world's problems. Sound familiar? It does to me.
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Old 01-03-2003, 11:00 AM   #40
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So what distinguishes a Christian from anyone else? You make is sound as if nothing does. As if Christian, Hindu, Jew, Mulsim and so forth should be interchangable. Is this your hope or do you think that is how the world is today?
The distinction would be the belief system; Christians have a set of beliefs roughly summed up by the Nicene Creed.

That's a pretty big distinction. There are certain statistical assertions I can make; most Christians will frown on casual sex, have some kind of opposition to divorce (although it may not be very strong), and will believe that moral action is a Good Idea.

However, we're still people. Christian theology says people are "sinful". All that really means is "sometimes, we don't do the right thing, even when we ought to know better". I have never seen anyone who *didn't* believe that, when you get down to it. So... It doesn't surprise me a whole lot when Christians do bad things. It bothers me, and I try to help them not repeat their mistakes, but it's not as if it contradicts any of my theology for them to have done so.
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