Starboy

seebs, I contend that religion is the problem. It stems from that useless concept called "truth". The stock and trade of religion. Without it, there would be no religion and with it tolerant religion is impossible. We have reached a point in our civilization where "truth" mongering is more dangerous than it is benificial.

Starboy

seebs

Yeah. It's actually amazing comparing Starboy's posts on this issue to the fundies on Christian boards. They're twins. Personally, if I were trying to be a "freethinker", finding that I was acting exactly like a fundie would scare me.

Starboy

wilderness, I understand the purpose of the march. It is just that Christians missed an incredible opportunity to show what they purport to be made of. Instead they let other Christians show what Christians are most likely made of.

Starboy

seebs

This is bordering on random scripture quotes. What on earth do you mean?

If you think truth is useless, go believe firmly that fire doesn't hurt you and stick your hand in an open flame, and keep it there. Go ahead.

I think you're talking about the religious concept of "The Big Truth", the thing which is untestable, unprovable, and which, of course, everyone must believe.

However, I'm not sure how this makes tolerance "impossible". Frankly, you're impressing me with your willful blindness here; how long a conversation do we need to have before you'll notice that I exist? I believe in truth beyond human comprehension. I have some strongly-held beliefs about what that truth will turn out to be. And yet... I am strangely able to accept that other people disagree.

You're projecting. *You* can't stand people disagreeing, probably largely in reaction to annoying fundies. And so, you conclude that *no one* can. But that part's wrong; lots of people can. Probably a majority, statistically - but you don't see them as much, because people who don't mind other people disagreeing with them don't generally *talk* much about it.

I mean, think about the motivations. My mother-in-law is very strongly religious, and 100% convinced of basic Christian dogma. She doesn't care whether other people agree. Do you see her hanging out here? No! Why should she? She has nothing to prove, no particular interest in trying to convert a bunch of strangers, and has other things that are more interesting to her.

"Truth" only becomes a threat when you believe that your truth is *so important* that pushing it at people takes precedence over accomplishing useful stuff - which is *exactly* what you've just asserted.

You're turning into the thing you hate. Perhaps you should stop; that path has never, ever, been a good one.

seebs

I see. People who wanted to show that religious people were capable of tolerance, and capable of leaving people alone, should have turned out in record numbers to show that they were not activists?

Uh-huh. *Listen* to yourself, you're so far from making sense that it's painful.

Starboy

seebs, methinks thou doest protest too much. Refute my claims instead of resorting to lame arguments. Your intolerance is showing.

Starboy

seebs

What claims? So far, you've asserted that truth is useless, and that any religion that claims truth is necessary intolerant.

I am willfully inconsistent on one small point: I am intolerant of intolerance towards anything but intolerance. I am equally intolerant of people who are intolerant of atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, gays, Republicans, Democrats... It's all the same to me. The problem is intolerance, not any particular belief being right or wrong.

Starboy

seebs, I have made some statements that you do not understand and that you suspect you do not like. Your reaction is far from understanding or tolerant.

Starboy

wildernesse

What we purport to be made of? If we showed up at the Godless March, would we have proven that Christians are rude non-believers? I mean, I don't usually go places where I'm not invited or welcome. And if asked if I'm an atheist, I'll say no.

So what would showing up at a march uninvited and ready to show the government that we are non-believers and we demand to be heard proven about Christians?

There were just a couple of protesters at the march, correct? There are millions of believers in this country. Talk about an unbiased sample. Think about that and then tell me how those rude individuals represent all of Christianity.

--tibac

seebs

Well, go ahead, explain 'em. Pretend I'm slow. Explain what you mean about "truth" (in quotes). Show how it is incomptible with tolerance.

And look around closely at all the folks here who disagree with me and think it's just fine that we have different opinions. See me fighting with any of them? This is an important point, with Implications.