Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sabine Grant · 05-17-2003, 02:17 PM

By the way... if you wish to use some of your french, I would love to communicate en francais avec toi... but you need to activate your PM.
A bientot, Vero.

Tarnaak · 05-17-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Tarnaak---

I don't really see the difference. The ceremony of baptism (or Christening) of an infant definitely seems to be a born again ceremony. (Reading the words to the ceremony anyway.)

I would think that baptism would be the beginning middle and end-all of becoming a Christian --per the Bible.

It is possible that baptism at the age of an infant is a little premature. Perhaps the Baptists have that part figured out better than Episcopalians.

But still, it does seem that once baptized --you are born again.

After all a baptized infant, if he or she dies immediately after, is guaranteed heaven--

Children have a "free" ticket up to a certain point. It is not stated as to when one is no longer a child. I'm not sure at what point "ignorance of the law is no excuse" kicks in either. I would imagine that once one is able to comprehend things of the spirit is when though. The baptising of babies is another example of "human" intervention. No where in the Bible does it say to baptise babies. Basically, someone just thought it up.

Scripture can be intrepreted (unfortunately) in many ways. It obviously doesnt hurt to baptize a baby, but until they ask for the Spirit to be with them, it won't. (Part of free will, parents cant make anyone "take" the spirit)

Tarnaak · 05-17-2003, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Bonjour rational ABC...I am not sure baptism is a requirement to be " born again". I thought since my conversion that we are born of the Spirit of God once we establish sincerely that Christ died for our sins. ( sincerely is the key). When I was baptized, it was more so an act of personal aknowledgement and publicaly that indeed I am to follow Christ.
I do not consider baptism to be part of the salvation process. Nor do I believe that it has to be done by immersion or by "sprinkling water" to be a sincere act from the believer. The state of " heart" or mind of the believer is what God examines.
I am very lurry of all the extra requirements several denominations demand to confirm salvation. " believe in me and you shall be saved". No other requirement. Faith. " your faith has healed you". Pure, bold, immuable, sincere faith.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 02:27 PM

Sabine----

Je ne me sers jamais de P.M. C'est dommage, mais c'est necessaire --a mon avis.

Et, en tout cas, j'ai etudie la langue francaise a l'universite il y a quarante ans. Et, par consequent, j'ai beaucoup oublie.

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 02:34 PM

Tarnaak---

That sounded like a more reasonable explanation anyway.

Do you think that baptism of an infant has any value at all?

And wouldn't confirmation suffice for being born again? Isn't that the purpose of confirmation?-----------of an age of understanding and still accept Jesus as your saviour?

Sabine Grant · 05-17-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I guess then tarnaak if your interpretation is correct many christians will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven for not considering baptism as a requirement for salvation.

May I also give you another interesting approach to the " born of water".... born of water meaning who came out of the womb. It is one theological point which promotes dispensation from the need to be saved for unborn children who die before birth.

I hope you realize that denominational doctrines base their dogma on their own interpretation of the text.... for that reason, I prefer to entrust God with the final outcome rather than the human need to dictate to others under which " conditions" they will be saved.

" be still and know that I am".

GeoTheo · 05-17-2003, 02:36 PM

Rational BAC
You say fundies have some odd idea that you need to believe a list of things to be born again. You say you don't know where they got that idea. You say you don't read the Bible much.
Then you give a list. Am I missing somthing? What are you trying to say?

Sabine Grant · 05-17-2003, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Sabine----

Je ne me sers jamais de P.M. C'est dommage, mais c'est necessaire --a mon avis.

Et, en tout cas, j'ai etudie la langue francaise a l'universite il y a quarante ans. Et, par consequent, j'ai beaucoup oublie.

C'est pas grave... I suggested you activate your PM so we do not derail this interesting thread with our language of grenouilles. I live in the Tampa bay area too. Have you considered meeting with the Alliance Francaise folks so you can parler un peu plus? also you can access french news on www.TV5.org and choose from all the various local french TV stations such as FR3, Antenne 2 etc... if you have a short wave radio, RFI broadcasts both from France and Africa. Bon, je te laisse.

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 02:55 PM

GeoTheo---

I really don't know where the fundies got the idea that to be a born again Christian you have to fit within a very strict criteria.

Until some Fundie tells me different my criteria is as stated before.--Baptism, confirmation and personal acceptance at some wierd time in your life.

Will admit Baptism of an infant is probably a waste of time. Confirmation seems OK. Personal epiphany at some wierd time in your life is also probably superfluous.----but definitely makes a personal impression.

What was your question exactly besides what I have already stated?

Muffinstuffer · 05-17-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If being born of 'water' - in other words, being baptised - is a REQUIREMENT to enter the Kingdom of God, then the thief who hung on the cross at the right hand of Jesus was hosed.....DESPITE the fact that Jesus, after hearing the thief say "Remember me when you are in Heaven", said to the thief, "I tell you the truth; today you will be with Me in Paradise." I will have to go look this up, but as has been mentioned before, I believe it is referring to being born of the womb AND THEN born of the spirit, or 'born again' (being 'saved'.)

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05-17-2003, 02:17 PM	#11
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	By the way... if you wish to use some of your french, I would love to communicate en francais avec toi... but you need to activate your PM. A bientot, Vero.

05-17-2003, 02:27 PM	#14
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Sabine---- Je ne me sers jamais de P.M. C'est dommage, mais c'est necessaire --a mon avis. Et, en tout cas, j'ai etudie la langue francaise a l'universite il y a quarante ans. Et, par consequent, j'ai beaucoup oublie.

05-17-2003, 02:34 PM	#15
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Tarnaak--- That sounded like a more reasonable explanation anyway. Do you think that baptism of an infant has any value at all? And wouldn't confirmation suffice for being born again? Isn't that the purpose of confirmation?-----------of an age of understanding and still accept Jesus as your saviour?

05-17-2003, 02:36 PM	#17
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Rational BAC You say fundies have some odd idea that you need to believe a list of things to be born again. You say you don't know where they got that idea. You say you don't read the Bible much. Then you give a list. Am I missing somthing? What are you trying to say?

05-17-2003, 02:55 PM	#19
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	GeoTheo--- I really don't know where the fundies got the idea that to be a born again Christian you have to fit within a very strict criteria. Until some Fundie tells me different my criteria is as stated before.--Baptism, confirmation and personal acceptance at some wierd time in your life. Will admit Baptism of an infant is probably a waste of time. Confirmation seems OK. Personal epiphany at some wierd time in your life is also probably superfluous.----but definitely makes a personal impression. What was your question exactly besides what I have already stated?

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