Jamie_L

If the following are true:

1)God exists
2)God is omnisicent
3)God created humans

Can humans have free will relative to God?

An omniscient god knows all the choices his creations will ever make. Really, those choices are a part of us, so, in effect, God creates our future choices when he creates us. It seems the only way for an omnisicent god to give us a free will truely independent of him would be to make us through some random process whereby he makes no decisions about our future choices.

Any thoughts?

Jamie

Tom Sawyer

Jamie_L,

If I didn't know that it was impossible, I'd think that you just a logical inconsistency in Christian ideology.

I'd love to here more about this from you, but you've obviously already been struck down by a bolt of lightning for your heresy and will be unable to respond.

Kalestia

By knowing our choices, that doesn't mean God created and forced us to make those future choices. God doesn't force anyone against our will... Knowing what we'll do doesn't mean he makes us do it

Philosoft

This is logically incoherent. Consider what must take place:

1) God has a plan. (standard Christian doctrine)
2) God created humans with complete knowledge of both a) his plan and b) our future actions according to his plan.

This is enough to establish a causative link. You wish to say that there is a logical premise that denies this causative link? If so, please show your work.

Kalestia

Knowing what will happen could mean he allowed it, but it doesn't necessarily mean he caused it.

Equating knowledge with causality is logically incoherant.

For example: If I know what the president is going to say tomorrow, does that mean I caused him to say it?

Philosoft

You're forgetting something...

<strong> Quite right, but there's something else involved...

<strong> Of course not. Yet you are still badly missing the point.

All of the above fails analagously because it ignores the following:

1) God created all humans.
2) God had complete knowledge of all human actions before he created humans.

Theli

He has no choice but to allow it.
If he really knew what would happen, he couldn't stop it himself. Because that would make his knowledge false (non-omniscient). And if he cannot change what he knows will happen he cannot very well be omnipotent either.

Poor god!

scumble

One thing you might think about is that God can't take any credit for good stuff that happens, if we do have free will. If we do something good, it's because we chose to do it.
The whole free will concept indicates that God does nothing to enforce his moral rules, and might as well not be there.
I challenge any Christian to point out how God educates us at all. God hasn't turned up to chat with me, whatever St. Paul says...

Nice twist, Theli, btw.

Karen M

Hello Kal

God's goal in creating the universe was to bring as much glory to himself as possible, correct?


If you were an omniscient, omnipotent being who created the universe and pre-planned the exact movement of every molecule everywhere to create a universe that would best get you glory, then yes, you would have caused it.

God, being omniscient, would know everything, including things such as if he created the universe one way, a drop of water would run left down a leaf in Africa in 500 BCE and if he created it just a bit different and started the molecules bouncing at slightly different angles in the beginning then the same drop of water would run right down the leaf instead. Because his goal is the most glory for himself, if he decided that it glorified him more to have the water drop on the left side, then he would make it that way, correct?

Being omnipotent too, he could pre-plan and perfectly form every single action taken anywhere before it was going to occur. How does this leave any room for free will?

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]</p>

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Philosoft,

This bit always confuses me. Why is it that
athiests steadfastly promote the idea that God had a secret agenda and created the universe only to manipulate it as means to some end?

??


This illustrates how little the promoter of such a viewpoint has actually thought about the subject. It is completely contradictory with the concept of an omnipotent entity.


If an omnipotent being did desire a specific state of affairs...why wouldn't the entity create
the universe with THAT state to begin with???

In short, why is not Creation simply a pure act of creativity? Why do atheists hold that there can be no implicit value in this? Strange.


SOMMS