mike_decock

Has anyone else here read Revelation, the original Jewish version?

-Mike...

Radcliffe Emerson

Thomas Jefferson explained Revelation:
"The incoherent ramblings of a madman", or something to that effect.
I think that's the best explanation.

Magus55

If Jesus already came in 70 a.d - how do you explain revelation, the rapture, the end times, judgement, etc. etc.? The Tribulation comes before Jesus sets foot on Earth the second time. if Jesus already did that, then did we just sleep through the judgement of the Earth?

River

what exactly is the Rapture? I have heard some stuff about but it sounds weird. Is there a verse I can refer to?

Spaz

Read mike's link

Magus55

When Christ takes all the believers with Him to Heaven, before He unleashes His judgement on the sinning world.


1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

River

Correct me if I'm wrong...but aren't these verses talking about Judgement Day? Rather than Prior to Judgement.

Mageth

Sounds like slightly modified Zoroastrianism to me, Magus. Even your bible's end time "prophecies" were borrowed and modified from other, older myths.

In Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda will gain ultimate victory over Angra Mainy (Ahriman) through a messiahlike figure, the Saoshyant. The struggle between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman is to be six thousand years (three thousand had already passed when Zoroaster was born, some time in the mid-first millenium BCE); after the victory will come a resurrection and judgment. The world will be renewed and be inhabited by the good, who will live in joy.

Sound familiar?

Mageth

BTW, Rapture theology (as part of "Dispensationalism") so prevalent among Protestants today is largely the creation of John Nelson Darby, who founded the Plymouth Brethren sect in the 19th century, and whose views were popularized in America by the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909.

judge

Revelation was written prior to 70 a.d.http://www.preteristvision.org/quest...ationdate.html

The rapture?

There is no such thing as in "left behind" etc...

The end times? The last days have been and gone.




Acts chapter 2: 14-21 clearly tell us that the apostles were living in the last days.

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.

Acts 2:14-17

Hebrews 1:1-2 indictaes the same thing.

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

paul tells timothy the kind of men who would be around in the last days and then tells Timothy to avoid such people. Seems he though they were there then.

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

James tells the people he wrote to that the cries against those who hoarded wealth in the last days had then reached the ears of God.


You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.

James 5:3b-4

The tribulation happened. Josephus records it. After the tribulation Jesus came in glory.

http://www.preteristvision.org/artic...evidences.html


The judgement happened as well, and the raising of the dead.