Majestyk

Sulphur, how did you arrive at the conclusion that the odds of finding a random environment, off of the Earth, that could sustain human life better than the worst environment, on the Earth, would be greater than finding a random environment while, on the Earth, that could have sustained Europeans such as Magellen? (my head hurts now)

This is actually a more interesting proposition than interstellar travel. To stay on topic though; why would you want to use the replica of an evolved brain/consciousness as opposed to an efficiently designed brain/consciousness, as evolution breeds complexity?

Aside from the massive undertaking of mapping the synapse of a brain, that complexity could pale if, the level and type of neurotransmitters at each synapse, are an integral composition of memory, intellect, and personality. (okay, so I can't stay on topic)

What of the psychiatric effects of disassociation with a traditional self, (body image for example)? Isolation and resentment have already been touched on.

Then, there is lack of catalytic chemicals produced by the body in accordance to and affecting brain functions. Would this solve for psychiatric problems or impede fundamental brain mechanics entirely?

I would imagine the knowledge that we would gain in the process of developing the technique for uploading a brain would be tremendous.

Jesse

Majestyk:
This is actually a more interesting proposition than interstellar travel. To stay on topic though; why would you want to use the replica of an evolved brain/consciousness as opposed to an efficiently designed brain/consciousness, as evolution breeds complexity?

Well, what does "efficiently designed" mean? It may not be possible to program complex intelligences in a top-down rational manner, it may be that such complexity can only be achieved by messy self-organization, as in a neural net. And as I said to Patrick, humans might want to explore other star systems personally, and possibly exploit resources outside our solar system too.

Majestyk:
Aside from the massive undertaking of mapping the synapse of a brain, that complexity could pale if, the level and type of neurotransmitters at each synapse, are an integral composition of memory, intellect, and personality. (okay, so I can't stay on topic)

If you've already got enough computing power to simulate every single synapse in the entire brain, I can't imagine simulating neurotransmitter levels as well would require too many orders of magnitude more computing power.

Majestyk:
What of the psychiatric effects of disassociation with a traditional self, (body image for example)? Isolation and resentment have already been touched on.

If you've got the computing power and biological knowledge to accurately simulate a brain, hopefully you'd also be able to simulate a body in a realistic virtual environment--being a brain without a body would be worse than being paraplegic! So, isolation wouldn't be necessary on an interstellar voyage, you could have a community of uploads living in the same simulated environment, like a small town. On earth an upload's simulated brain could also just be used to control a physical body in the real world (a human-looking robot body, a cloned body without a brain of its own, an adult body created from scratch using nanotechnology, whatever).

Majestyk:
Then, there is lack of catalytic chemicals produced by the body in accordance to and affecting brain functions. Would this solve for psychiatric problems or impede fundamental brain mechanics entirely?

Again, simulating the body and its interactions with the brain would be a necessity, otherwise it'd probably be like torture for the uploads just being a disembodied consciousness.

Majestyk:
I would imagine the knowledge that we would gain in the process of developing the technique for uploading a brain would be tremendous.

Yeah, it'd probably be a major undertaking, like the human genome project. I imagine they'd start out trying to simulate organisms with much simpler brains and work their way up to humans, though.

Majestyk

Jesse:
Well, what does "efficiently designed" mean?

The immediate creation with, a minimum of waste, of a plan for construction.

Jesse:
It may not be possible to program complex intelligences in a top-down rational manner, it may be that such complexity can only be achieved by messy self-organization, as in a neural net.

Granted. That may very well be the case. Until we actually get to that point though, I will assume that, considering the problems associated with the stress and isolation experienced by a human mind during experiments associated with long term habitation in artificial environments, those problems will be exacerbated by removing that mind from its biological support system. It is an assumption.

Jesse:
And as I said to Patrick, humans might want to explore other star systems personally, and possibly exploit resources outside our solar system too.

Are you suggesting that uploading a brain pattern is equivalent to the transfer of consciousness from one entity to another?

Jesse:
If you've already got enough computing power to simulate every single synapse in the entire brain, I can't imagine simulating neurotransmitter levels as well would require too many orders of magnitude more computing power.

Not going to argue this. The numbers must be massive. Anyone have any educated estimates on the required number of logic gates per synapse?

Jesse:
If you've got the computing power and biological knowledge to accurately simulate a brain, hopefully you'd also be able to simulate a body in a realistic virtual environment-

I'm still assuming this is unecessary complexity. Prejudicial and without basis on my part.

Jesse:
-being a brain without a body would be worse than being paraplegic!

If, you are uploading a paraplegic's brain pattern then you may actually have an appreciative virtual personality.

Jesse:
So, isolation wouldn't be necessary on an interstellar voyage, you could have a community of uploads living in the same simulated environment, like a small town.

I hadn't considered this possibile scenario. It adds a completely new branch of speculation.

Jesse:
On earth an upload's simulated brain could also just be used to control a physical body in the real world (a human-looking robot body, a cloned body without a brain of its own, an adult body created from scratch using nanotechnology, whatever).

I was envisionong the body replaced by the vehicle and/or probes.

Jesse:
Again, simulating the body and its interactions with the brain would be a necessity, otherwise it'd probably be like torture for the uploads just being a disembodied consciousness.

It would be interesting to find out. Read a story once about where the maximum punishment imposed by a society was being completely sensory deprived for one year.

Jesse:
Yeah, it'd probably be a major undertaking, like the human genome project. I imagine they'd start out trying to simulate organisms with much simpler brains and work their way up to humans, though.

It would be a fascinating project to work on.

Farren

Just a side note

I read in the Sunday papers a group of medical scientists has come up with an artificial hypothalamus. This is part of the brain. I'm pretty excited.

Arbogast

"My feeling is that within the next century we will probably develop the ability to upload human minds into computers, by mapping out a person's brain at the synaptic level and then performing a detailed simulation of it. " Jesse

Not sure if I agree, but that is the kinda thinking that will spread the human race far and wide...

Now, with such technology (even though it would be imperfect I think), combined with long term storage of embryos or egg and sperm, you could begin to seriously discuss colonizing other worlds with technology that is easily imaginable.

Such a technology would be excellent for running the space ship, and such technology would be ideal
for raising children when the spacecraft reached its destination.

A colonization ship is far easier to design if it is not in a big hurry, and does not have to support adult humans, both physically and psychologically.

Majestyk

If, I'm not mistaken, the goal is to aid persons who are suffering from short to long term memory transfer problems. Even if, the project is unsuccesful it should provide some useable data.

Majestyk

Seed ships. If, we assume that the transfer of brain patterns could be achieved in both directions then, you have the possibility of maturing embryos and then, imprinting them with stored brain patterns (ethical considerations not withstanding).

Maybe include some embryonic flora and fauna as well.

Sounds like a premise for a series of pulp sci-fi books.

Arbogast

Well Majestyk, cant say I am interested or know much about science fiction, but such technologies seem like they would be possible in the not to distant future, judging from the rate of change in technology the last few centuries.

Majestyk

Arbogast, I hope you didn't take offense at my sci-fi remark. It was directed at myself. My imagination was running with possible scenarios involving the development of such technologies.

RBH

Actually this thread has been filled with plots/technologies from science fiction, and that's no slam on the ideas being proposed. Just offhand I recognize Poul Anderson's "Boat of a Million Years" (extended human lifetimes - actually, genetic immortals); Anne McCaffrey's "The Ship Who Sang" (paraplegics' brains implanted in spaceships; after a period of indenture to pay for the ship and implantation process they were free to sell their services as intelligent ships!); and any number of seed ship plots. Science fiction is a good stretcher of the imagination and ought not be denigrated.

RBH

Added in edit:

The Ship Who Sang - First Chapter
Review of The Boat of a Million Years