The AntiChris

Do you mean that nature really intended us all to be bakers?

Chris

Oxymoron

Do you choose the women you feel attracted to? Or do you just dribble like the rest of us? Seriously, I can't explain why I find breasts so intriguing, but they remain so. Have I in any sense made a decision here? I think not, because decision is a high-level-brain thing, and lust is my primitive little amigdala going "shag!shag!shag!..."

Liquidrage

Well, first we don't have true free will. Feel free to go to the Philosophy Forum and browse through the many topics on the subject. The notion of true free will, choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances, just does not exist.

Though, if for arguements sake, we stated that true free will existed, it would still have to be limited. The second part of your arguement could (and most likely "would") fall here. I cannot simply choose to believe in god. I can tell myself and even others that I believe in god, but I wouldn't actually believe in god. Likewise, if I did believe in god, I could not just simply choose to not believe in god. I believe the Earth is round. Can I choose to believe the Earth is flat? Most certainly not.
I broke up with a girl I had dated when I was 18 though I actually still liked her. For the next two years of my life I still liked her but wished I didn't. I knew the relationship was bad for me. But I had no choice here. Just as Oxymoron says above here, I couldn't control who I liked in a heterosexual relationship. Why would it be different for a homosexual relationshiip? It wouldn't.

TealVeal

I remember reading skin color is determined by something like 19 genes. Why should something more complex like sexuality be determined by only 1? It might be one gene but I really doubt it.

faded_Glory

Justicemachine,

You are trying to classify people in neat little boxes - homosexual, heterosexual, this box, that box.

Wy do you do this? Is it so that once you have them placed in their box it is easy to decide what to think of them? Why do you want to know what the bennifits or detremits [sic] of a sexual orientation are? Do you want to change anybody?

It is a very dangerous thing to classify people. It has often led to great evil. I suggest you try to accept people as they are and let the subject go.

fG

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: faded_Glory ]</p>

JusticeMachine

One could argue that lust, being a primitive little amigdala, means that to submit to it would be to waive my ability to overrule my primitive instincts with my high-level-brain thing.

Whats more, instincts (from an macro evolutionary stand point) are the culmination of natural selection bringing the dominate traits, that will best serve to ensure survival of the species, to the surface, while the weaker traits are discarded in the lack of procreation of the specific individual that possess those weaker traits.

If that were the premise than I can see how hetrosexuality and bi-sexuality can be past on from generation to generation, but I can't see how homosexuality could be past on by natural selection, since being homosexual defies procreation.

JusticeMachine

I contend you can choose to belief in GOD, in fact much of biblical belief shows that having free will to choose to believe, is the only valid for of worship of GOD, that by a persons choice to believe in him, is a tribute to GOD.

For if I have no free will (even partially free}, then how can a person be judged by GOD to be righteous or unrighteous, and punished or rewarded for something they had no ability/power/will to decide.

It would be like being anger with a tree because it is grew too tall, and punishing that tree by burning it down, because it had the odasity to follow its true nature.

scigirl

This subject has come up several times in Evo/Cre, especially in regards to the question, "how could a gene for homosexuality survive?"

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000138" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000138</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001359&p=" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001359&p=</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001614&p=" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001614&p=</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001702" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001702</a>

scigirl

sakrilege

Homosexuals can (and do) have children.

There are many species where only a few males father all the offspring so having 50% males and all males fertile 'seems' wasted.

Liquidrage

I contend you can choose to belief in GOD, in fact much of biblical belief shows that having free will to choose to believe, is the only valid for of worship of GOD, that by a persons choice to believe in him, is a tribute to GOD.

No. You can choose to worship god. You can't choose your beliefs.


For if I have no free will (even partially free}, then how can a person be judged by GOD to be righteous or unrighteous, and punished or rewarded for something they had no ability/power/will to decide.


You just put the cart before the horse.
If there is no god it's irrelevant, right.
What you're touching on is morality in a deterministic world. Separate issue, feel free to post in philosophy or read the 100's of existing threads on the subject.


It would be like being anger with a tree because it is grew too tall, and punishing that tree by burning it down, because it had the odasity to follow its true nature.

Whats your point? Certainly you can't believe that everything humans do is rational?
We do cut down trees becuse they've grown too tall. Do you get mad at them? I do not.
Hitler was killed because of his actions. Even though I'm a strict determinist I have no problem with that.

Even without free will there is a need for morality.
If you can't reconcile morality without free will that is your problem.