Yellum Notnef

I don't know about the rest of the members here but I'm sick and tired of hearing about the alleged OPININIONS of some guys who died a long time ago. The religious OPINIONS of Washington and Franklin are IRRELEVANT to this as well as any other modern discussion of religious matters on these forums.

Franklin could have put a picture of a guy who looked just like me on the front of his "no atheists" pamphlet for all I care. He and the rest of those superstitious old geezers are long gone and some atheists live here now.

Hey Rad,
Why don't you go to Philadelphia with a stethoscope and see if you can actually hear Franklin spinning in his grave.

Rational BAC

I don't know about that Rad-

The only thing for sure is-----------that DEISM was the accepted philosophical viewpoint of the intellectuals of the latter part of the 18th century----

---caused by the earthquake that killed about 30,000 Church goers on a Sunday morning a little after noon-----which caused the death of "believers" and saved the unbelievers. The believers were all in Church saying Mass at the time and--as a result--got squished. -----

--- All intellectuals at the time, (even believers) said to themselves "What the F-- is going on here?" "Obviously God does not really give a crap about what happens on Earth. Therefore, He must be a far away and very disinterested God."

And that,--DEISM ---(besides whatever our founders personally believed --and is of no particular importance anyway)----is what our founders put in the Constitution. --------Because they wanted to be taken SERIOUSLY by the rest of the intellectual world.

If they had not done that--their ideas would have been laughed out of every intellectual "salon" in Europe. Our Constitution is a result of that impetus to belong intellectually to the trend of the times.

Has everyone here forgotten that the latter part of the 18th century was the "Age of Enlightenment"-----which equals ferocious anti-clericalism and the questioning of EVERYTHING?

That is the milieu in which our Founders found themselves. (Personal opinions not withstanding.)

And that is why our Constitution is what it is----------a secular humanist document alluding very vaguely to a DEIST God.

Fundies can not change that ----no matter how hard they may try.

lpetrich

Why not tell them directly that they are just plain wrong? Or try to set the record straight in various public venues?

Like saying that crude literalism will make baby Jesus cry or something like that.

I don't like the idea of protecting those who claim to oppose fundies but then turn around and act as if we infidels are worse than fundies.

Yellum Notnef

Rational BAC,
It would be wise not to engage Radorth in a discussion of the founding fathers.

There are a couple very long and frustrating threads in the archives that demonstrate why this is not such a good idea.

DamagedGoods

Wow, I've never heard of that before. I've really been meaning to start educating myself on history one of these days, because it's getting more interesting to me.

I must have missed the part of the constitution that alludes to any god, deist or otherwise. Could you tell me which section it's in? (I'm serious, please don't read any snooty sarcasm into that. )

I agree fundies are pretty pissed that the Constitution is a secular document, but our elected representatives ignore many concepts spelled out in that document anyway (like the federal government only having the powers enumerated in it, or only the Congress having the power to declare war), so why should fundies have a harder time ignoring it?

lpetrich

But are they willing to go out in public and say that?

Or even say something relatively mild like how our current pResident is NOT their high priest? No matter how much he acts like he is.

lpetrich

There are less obnoxious ways of making that point, but it is worth making, especially in public venues.

Dream on. There are too many examples of dedicated extremists taking over.

Communists
Nazis and Fascists
Muslim fundamentalists

How many Russians really wanted Lenin and his friends in power?

How many Germans really wanted Hitler and his friends in power?

How many Iranians really wanted Khomeini and his friends in power?

Mageth

How many Americans really wanted George W. Bush and his friends in power?

lpetrich

Rational BAC and DamagedGoods, that was the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, which happened on November 1, ~ 8 am local time. This was All Saints' Day, a very important religious holiday for these Catholics, and many of Lisbon's inhabitants were in the city's houses of worship for that occasion.

Rational BAC

Going back to a previous post-----Have forgotten already how to do the "view" thing---so bear with me.

Yep----------The earthquake and subsequent tidal wave that struck Lisbon, Portugal (and don't make me state the year--I think it was 1755 or so?) was the MAJOR cause of a massive transformation of theological, philosophical thought in the latter part of the 18th century. It permeated everything intellectual at the time.

Very strange happening too. One of those very unusual "Acts of God".

Best estimates------maybe 30,000 died. And the reason that almost all of those 30,000 died was because they were believers, very good Christians, sitting happily in Church, celebrating Mass, and seeking their salvation------------When BOOM --the walls came tumbling down.

And almost all of the pimps, prostitutes, general ne'er do wells and definitely those going straight to hell for their improprities and lack of belief-----------Well they all survived--simply because they were not indoors in a big structure like a Church. They could easily get outside.

I mean this was a BIGGY in the latter part of the 18th century. Everyone puzzled about this very strange 1 in a million occurrence.

And again----------Even if our founders were not all technically deists, they did want to be part of the predominate intellectual and philosophical movement of the time-----------DEISM -------And that is why again --our Constitution is a humanist and secular document. ---with very vaque allusions to a Deist type of God.

And that is what we have today in the Constitution. Fundies can try to spin all they want to about the USA being a Christian nation. It is not.
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PS ---------Darn it all anyway---You are going to make me look something up aren't you? I think the deist reference is in the preamble.